Paul: 0:29

Good afternoon and welcome back for another episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers podcast, brought to you in partnership with ADHD Liberty, breaking the pipeline between schools and prisons. If you want to know more about ADHD Liberty, the links are in the comments! Today's guest is the fabulous Gemma Crane. Gemma, welcome to the show.

Gemma: 0:48

Good morning or good afternoon.

Paul: 0:50

Yeah, it's always weird, isn't it? We record these so far in advance. It's, if you're watching this, we, it is published in the afternoon. It is 9am. Hence I look a bit worse for wear. I should be able to get up for nine, but here we go. So Gemma is the founder and director of Mindset HR. So that's a consultancy that goes Beyond traditional HR by focusing much more on attitudes, behaviours and workplace culture to create a happier, more productive business. Gemma's years of experience in HR and recruitment. And she's worked across indices from retail to healthcare, law enforcement, and specifically on developing people centric strategies that help bridge the gap between business owners and employees. She's super passionate about transforming workplace dynamics, ensuring businesses thrive through fostering trust, collaboration, and transparency. And that's it. If anybody has been watching the show recently, you'll have seen that I've, in my own personal account, not just on the MarketPulse, the values that you've pulled out in the bio there, they are very central to what a lot of the network is that we work with. So I, I'm sure that you get lots of positive feedback on, how you differentiate yourself. And I think in 2025, what, I think it's the way forward. Rewinding back to the beginning Gemma, Not many people aim to get into HR. Why, how and why did you end up in HR in the first place?

Gemma: 2:12

I have to say it was probably a bit of a fluke. I started in retail actually when I came out of school did the customer service piece and then a friend of mine, a family friend actually, a friend of mine was working for a well known head office retailer at the time that were growing and there was a vacancy available and I applied for it. And of course, refer a friend was very much of their business model as well, so managed to get the job there and was there for, I think I was there for about 10 years. So very much started off in the head office, in the HR department or personnel as it was back in the day. So yeah, started off as a, an admin for them and then worked my way through different roles ended up as a recruitment manager for them. Before moving on, I had a slight break, so I lived in Turkey for a bit whilst I was there. So I went off dancing and singing, which is my background and then came back. And the role obviously would change slightly understandably. And they were kind enough to let me go off and come back. And then decided it was time for a change, really. I think living abroad, makes you grow and evolve, differently as a being. Yeah, I was quite different when I came back

Paul: 3:23

So when you say singing and dancing that covers quite a lot of aspects so I've got friends who are like are people who are professional dancers and singers,then I've got people who are kind of etnertainment kind of singing and dancing are we talking

Gemma: 3:32

Over there I was doing production shows, so we would do six different themed shows a week in an open top restaurant. It was a sit down restaurant people would come along and yeah, we would choreograph and set the routines. We did a Bond night, a Tina Turner night, a Disney themed one a show, showgirl one so there was all different themes throughout there. But, I guess as a dancer, I'd been a dancer since the age of three. So I've done a variety of different things, been over to LA and worked for Disney for a bit and travelled, did the Princess Cruises so that's always been a bit of a background for me and I've been really fortunate that most HR roles that I was in, I was able to go off and have a sabbatical or take that career break and Either go back into that business when I came back home or to, step into that next role. So I was very fortunate.

Paul: 4:21

So when you got the opportunity to do that and you're out there in Turkey and working in that environment what brought you back again?

Gemma: 4:28

A relationship.

Paul: 4:29

Ah

Gemma: 4:30

a relationship, a man brought me back to England. So his he sadly lost his mum and he was coming out every other week during his sort of off shift to come and see me. He was from the UK. And yeah, lost his mum very suddenly. So one weekend he was with me and unfortunately, sadly lost his mum. So I came home to support the family really. And that's what went from there.

Paul: 4:53

I don't imagine. First of all, I'm sorry to hear that, but I can also imagine that experience influenced you quite heavily working in people and HR, right?

Gemma: 5:03

Absolutely. Yeah we were a team that worked together over there and it was really interesting because when I got the contract, I got on the plane at Gatwick Airport and I'd never met these people before and we were all together and we were going to be living together in a block of apartments and we got to know each other very quickly.

Paul: 5:21

I can imagine you did. Yeah.

Gemma: 5:23

from all over the UK. And yeah, we ended up being that sort of production team and it was good fun. Tough at times. I missed home. I really missed the roast dinners and the comforts of your own home, the carpet, cause we didn't have carpets and just really odd things really. But yeah, missed home. I was still quite young at the time and hadn't been away from home for that period of time before. Was quite homesick for a period of time, but soon settled in.

Paul: 5:48

Then, take us back to the HR side of things. So you've progressed through, a corporate HR structure for quite some time. Having worked retail myself for quite a number of years, and experiencing that kind of career, I can imagine that you found that corporate life both quite safe and secure, but also quite frustrating at times.

Gemma: 6:10

Yeah, absolutely. It was really safe and secure. It had its challenges, I think, at times. Corporate is quite rigid in terms of its processes and you Back then there wasn't much flexibility around change and innovation. So for me, was always quite a creative person. I think being in performing arts and, that side of things, I was always quite a creative person. So would always have different ideas and want to put those things forward. So yeah it had its positives. You had the security of being corporate, I think. But certainly when I was going, you more senior in the HR world, sitting between the managing director and the finance director was more challenging because they would be talking about. More cash flow and more money and this is where we want to get to but not ever considering the people and not ever really looking at what people do they need and what roles do they need to be able to grow that business to what that number looks like. So for me it was a little bit frustrating at times and I would be in the middle of that saying hang on a minute. Take all of that away, take all of those numbers out, but actually if you haven't got the right people, and you haven't got them doing the right things in the right places, then absolutely you're not going to get to that number, no matter how hard you try. It was all about the performance, all about, the measurements, the KPIs, the objectives, the values. Making sure people are happy as well, because we know that when people are happy and satisfied and connected and feeling that purpose at work, we know that they're more productive and they're going to be performing better as well. Yeah, that's

Paul: 7:49

having worked on the inside of retail, what you said there is really interesting for me because it probably took me 8 years, 7 or 8 years to get to a point where I was brave enough or confident enough to disregard almost entirely my senior leadership's instructions when taking a new store on. And I did that because I'd, I knew the same as what you've just described, right? It wasn't about the numbers, it wasn't about the metrics, it wasn't about the KPIs. your team weren't behind you, didn't believe in you, didn't have a path forward, weren't motivated, weren't enthusiastic, you could try everything you wanted, but you might as well just chuck the rest in the bin. And I tried for the longest time, I tried to do it the way I was asked to do it. Change everything, do a new base water, the base waters are wrong, you've got wrong people in at the wrong times. And what I came to realise was actually, these people are just being unmotivated, they're not enthusiastic. They don't have, nobody talks to them and finds out what they want. Nobody helps them progress in their careers, they just become a number. And once I hit that point where I was brave enough to say No, I'm not doing it. The difference in the stores that I ran was huge. And the management hated it because I was totally rebelling against everything that had been said. I'm like, no, I'm going to do this my way. You'll pay me a lot of money to do what I do. Let me do what I do. And if I'm wrong then we can deal with that consequence afterwards. And it was never wrong that the people, if you've got the people behind you, and it's, so it's interesting to hear that from a HR perspective, cause I know some HR people in that same business who were frustrated with things as I was. And it's that kind of, You're right. It's sometimes an us versus them mentality from the leadership team downwards, but then stuck having to justify actions through KPIs and metrics and red, green and finance, cause that's what makes the world go around. But actually, you've got to take that away and look at Things that are hard to quantify and I think that's the problem for a lot of those people. They come from a world where they used to be able to put a number on things. I know what that's worth to me. I know what the return is on that. And you're all of a sudden asking them to almost have faith in something and that's really hard, right? Yeah,

Gemma: 10:04

is the prominent part. That attraction marketing when you're recruiting is really important. What is that recruitment strategy? And if you haven't got values and you don't know what your values are, how are you going to be recruiting people? that you want to rely on to those values because you don't know what they look like. The first part is knowing what you want to be known for internally and externally. What do your clients want to know you for? What do your employees want to know you for? How do they want to feel when they walk into your workplace? How do they want to connect with you and your clients? And that is really important. Once you know those things, Then you can build on that recruitment strategy and you can understand what you're looking for when you're going out for your adverts, what platforms you need to be going. To if it's, if it's young mums, are you going to be going to, the financial times? No, you're absolutely not. You're going to be going to the mother and toddler club and looking for those, those mums that want to work for you or it's really important that you know what that looks like. So understanding that and then going out and doing those interviews and making sure that those questions that you ask in those interviews absolutely align to those values. And then you've got a bit of a starting Point from that, so you know that they're aligned to your values, they have personal values, they'll have probably similar values in the workplace then it's about what do they bring to that purpose? How are they going to be adding value to your workplace? And what do they want to do? What, where do they want to go? Do they want to stay on a level? Do they want to progress? Do they want to develop? Do they want to be the managing director? Like how many ambitions do they have and where do they want to go is so important. And then you can work with those people knowing you're all on the same hymn sheet. You've all got the same values, purpose et cetera. So it's really important.

Paul: 12:26

What was the turning point for you where you said you'd had enough of corporate and you were going to go it alone? what what caused that to happen?

Gemma: 12:33

I started the business so we're still very young. I guess I've wanted to do it for some years. My son is now 11 and there was a period of time when I was a single parent so that was a risk, for me to not have that stability for him. But there was always hope. A goal, if you like, there was always that goal of, it's going to happen the timing will be right when it's right and I guess that happened around my 40th birthday. I was like put your big girl pants on, and, what's the worst thing that can happen? We're in a really good position at home, Henry's old enough now So to be a little bit more self sufficient. And I just was probably at the point of being unemployable, I think. In the sense that, I used to get really frustrated and there was a role that I was working in near to the end of that period where, I would really challenge managing directors, finance directors, be quite vocal about it. I never held back. I'm always transparent, which is why it's one of our values because I need people to really understand the justification for my reasoning. And, It really is down to them whether they want to change or not change and absolutely some people and some businesses are not prepared to change despite what they tell you in the beginning. I got to the point where I was like, Do you know what? These businesses want to change but actually when you get in, they don't want to change. I really want to work with businesses that are inspired, by change and by, doing things differently, but actually have a passion for people and want to do the right thing by their people and lead by people. I did some coaching, and I'm obviously a coach as well, so during lockdown did lots of one to one coaching, group coaching online, and I do lots of meditation, and actually the name Minds HR came to me through meditation, and I was like, wow, okay, this is it. Literally, this is

Paul: 14:36

Yep.

Gemma: 14:37

Started creating things whilst I was in a corporate role, was very transparent with my director at the time, and just said, look, I'm going to be stepping out. on I'll happily do the redundancies that we've got underway at the moment. I'll see you through, of course, and I'll support you as I need to. But this is the end game for me, and this is the date I'm finishing, and actually, I probably would have been made redundant myself. Who knows? But they knew what I was planning behind the scenes and I just got everything aligned, my LinkedIn profile ready to go, marketing, website, you name it, it was like a switch on. And then September the 26th, 2022, I remember it like it was yesterday did a live on my LinkedIn and said, hey, here I am I'm now self employed. Here we go, help me, support me kind of thing, very vulnerably don't know where this is going to go and I've never looked back. It's been incredible.

Paul: 15:27

Wow to jump straight To a live stream on day one to say, this is what I'm doing. I find a lot of people are It's amazing how many people take the leap out of corporate and six months pass. And they realise that they still haven't told their immediate network what it is that they're doing now compared to what they used to do because they it you make an assumption that people would know because I've been posting it in my LinkedIn feed and I have been saying things and I've changed my company here and actually what you do need to do is exactly what you've said and just make that splash to say,

Gemma: 15:55

Hello! I've arrived. ha! Hello, I'm here! Ha! yeah, no, absolutely, and actually there was a few clients that had been referred to us by past people that I'd worked with and I'm talking, gosh, 15, 20 years ago that have come through and said, oh, go to Minds. hr, it's Gemma, we used to work for Gemma, etc. So that's really lovely, that's really lovely and that's what it's all about at the end of the day, when you're in a. Profession and you've been in it for a long time. You would hope those people that you've really nurtured and helped and supported, whether they're manager level, supervisor level, director level, that they would really have your back and support you. And we're finding that is the case. So that's wonderful.

Paul: 16:40

it's what I'd call in the industry, a brand legacy, right Where you've created a personal brand without even trying, right? Everybody has a personal brand. We all get hung up on this word, personal branding. But actually every, all it is just how you're talked about when you're not in the room, regardless of who it is that you're talking about, whether it's Your previous team that you used to work with, whether it's people on LinkedIn, whether it's your friends and family circle, we've all got a personal brand.

Gemma: 17:05

Yeah.

Paul: 17:07

built such a brand themselves through your work ethics and how you've held yourself, that people, like you say, 20 years later, that's phenomenal. Because that is, I know the problems that you need to solve. I know who needs to solve them, and I know that they're the only person that can solve them in the way that you need them solving. And that's what all of us should be aiming for, is that kind of clarity on what separates us from everyone else. And, let's be honest, HR isn't exactly a small space. It's quite crowded already, right?

Gemma: 17:41

yep.

Paul: 17:41

To have that impact on people who you've worked with in the past, that's phenomenal.

Gemma: 17:45

Yep.

Paul: 17:46

What is it that if somebody was to they've identified they've got a HR problem that they need support with, whether it's recruitment, whether it's legal work, whether it's just employee engagement type stuff, they've identified that, you and a couple of others are potential candidates to help them solve that, what is it that you Would talk to them about how you're different from everybody else. What is it that sets you unique?

Gemma: 18:15

again it depends on very much what it is that they need solving, but I guess our sort of USP is that we do work with business owners, we help them sleep at night. And A lot of the time, that's what I say when I go out networking, is people say, what do you do? And instead of saying I'm an HR consultant, they go, they switch off, sleep, it's like hypnotherapy. yeah,

Paul: 18:36

Oh

Gemma: 18:37

where's the exit? Yeah, exactly. It's a little bit like finance. And so I always say we help business owners sleep at night and they look at me a little bit strangely, but it really sparks a conversation. So that's one thing that we would say is that we help business owners And the reason we do that is because we're not just their HR partners. We will speak to you 10 o'clock at night and we have been doing that the last couple of weeks, if you need to ring us because you can't sleep and you've got something you want to discuss to be able to sleep, then give us a call and we'll help you unpick that, and unprocess that in your mind. We also very much are visible in business, so we like to, visit once, at least once a month with our clients, talk through any priorities, please. And things like that, but we're visible. We don't just sit in the ivory tower. We work with the business owners, but we also support the employees. So all of the employees will have our details. They can contact us if they don't want to go to their manager, because what we also know is most flat structures don't have that hierarchy to be able to You know, reach out to another manager or different, different level. So we are that other level if you like. So we can come in and they can call us or email us and say, look, I've got this problem with my manager. I've got nowhere else to go. How do we resolve it? And we can start then working on resolving that issue before it escalates or before they leave or before they raise a grievance with that proactive support. So that's really key. And actually sometimes it's much more about The how and the what, as to what, rather than what the actual problem is. And actually what we find is a lot of owners of businesses will think it's a problem, thinks a situation's a problem, but actually when you start unpicking it, it's a completely different problem. What you think starts off as being one thing actually ends up being another and then we can actually step in and take that kind of pressure off and manage that whole process and situation to make sure that it goes the right way. And because we're impartial we can be challenging when we want to be, whether that's to the manager, the business owner, the FD, whatever. Whereas when you've got an in house HR They've got to protect themselves. They've got to protect the politics and they've got to protect the brand. They've got to protect their job. They're a little bit exposed to actually being able to say what they really think. For us to be able to go, do you know what, you're not doing it the right way, actually, and have you thought about doing it this way? Or, what if I said this was happening, how would you respond to that? Having those open discussions is really important. And I think that probably makes us stand out, particularly. And of course, we offer You know, we offer the Mindset Coaching side as well, so if there are individuals that we feel are struggling with life generally, and are, have got a, a well being issue, or have suffered from trauma in the past, then we can start reprogramming that subconscious and start working with them on an individual basis as well, which is really powerful.

Paul: 21:33

It is, it's a really unique way of looking at things and I think for me the thing that tipped it was how you describe yourself to somebody who you've never met, right? That is what a lot of business owners really do miss because it's a simple statement that's actually really hard to come up with to be fair, like it's not as easy as, they're always really simple statements and it's so simple that because you've got your head in the weeds as a business owner there's Very rarely can you come up with them yourself hats off that you've got that because it creates that curiosity and that emotional engagement to go, huh, what do you mean? And you've been invited in at that point, and that, that is the bit that so many people miss. Just creating that, because otherwise you've got to go either a hard sales pitch or a really boring sales pitch.

Gemma: 22:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: 22:29

the vampire at the window, almost, that's a horrible way of describing it. But you've been invited in to discuss things, right? That's what we all want to be able to do, and it makes for a much nicer conversation. So if you don't mind, did you come up with that statement yourself? Is that something that you thought of, or is it something somebody else said to you? That we help business owners sleep at night?

Gemma: 22:52

it was something that I came up with. I think comments had been made from clients about not being able to sleep because of people problems. We work with a lot of family businesses and, they're having fallouts. And that's, when you have the emotional attachment, as well as the professional attachment to your business, that's a really different ballgame, ballgame to be in. And we help them to navigate through the emotional side, but also the professional, the legislative side as well and keeping them compliant. So those two things. So I often say to, to the business owners that are literally, you can see them combust, combusting in the room cause they're going red, they're angry, and this is what they want to happen. I'm like let's take a step back. Let's sit down, let's do some work. Let's talk about how you're feeling. Let's talk about you, how does this make you feel? What does that look like and how is that coming out in reality? And often they'll say, I'm just not sleeping, I can't sleep.

Paul: 23:53

Yep.

Gemma: 23:53

That's probably where that came from. there's probably a few others that we tend to use as well, that when we go out networking and trying to take away that stigma of HR, cause we, we are HR and when I set the brand, I actually didn't want HR in the brand name, but I had to, because if not, people wouldn't know what we did. But it's changing that stereotypical view of HR because I do know and people, I think people think that HR people don't know, we absolutely do know that there's a stigma to HR and we're seen as the bad guys or, We don't really have any influence in business and that's very corporate. Changing that stigma is about. Being that sort of person that can go in and challenge the status quo.

Paul: 24:40

Thank you very much for sharing that, Gemma. There's a lot of detail to dig into there. I think you handled the questions really well. Thank you very much for sharing your journey with us. If folks are listening along at home and they want to find out a bit more about you or Mindset HR, what's the best way for them to contact you?

Gemma: 24:54

So definitely on LinkedIn, that is a place where we hang out. So either on my page, Gemma Crane, or on the Mindset HR, or the website which is www. mindset hr. co. uk But we do podcasts, we do networking, we're out and about. So if you're particularly, East Anglia wise and in that location, you will probably see us cause we get out a lot to different venues and events and things, but yeah, thanks for having me on today.

Paul: 25:21

Fantastic. Thank you very much for being a guest. And if you watch along at home, thank you for being our audience. We love you very much, and I will see you next week. Bye bye