Paul: 0:29

And welcome to this week's very special MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers. It's very special for one simple reason. Is today I'm able to finally announce that we have a charity partner for the show. Now I've been looking for a charity partner for about a year, not long after we started the show. And I've been determined that we would find a partner that meant something to me personally and to our family. Because it's a family business. And We've been on a bit of a journey over the last few years, and I myself have self diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years back. Did a couple of, every time I do an online test I feel like the tests get more and more convincing that I do have it, and at a higher level. Maybe it's coming out more, I don't know. And there's probably elements of autism in there as well, I think, there's some autistic traits in there, the more I analyse it, we're in there. And my son, who's seven, has gone through the assessment pathway, we don't know for definite one way or another. But I went through a period just before Christmas where I was going out of my mind. Mind. We were at the end of our tether. My wife was crying at the table. Son, if you're watching this one day, when you get older, I'm very sorry. This is how it was. I realized this is indelible. This is permanent, right? But, but it was, it was tough and it was hard on him as well. And we pride ourselves on being very loving, caring parents. We just wanted to do something to, we were very clear that it was something on our end that we needed to change in order to help him. And. I've looked at books online many times, audio books, I like to listen to them as I'm walking, and I've come across like American ADHD books, I've come across a couple of English ADHD books, and parenting books, and I found them pretty bland and boring, and not very helpful or interesting. Until I came across one book that was written by today's guest, which is Sarah Templeton. So Sarah, before I, before I delve any further into the story, hello, Hello.

Sarah: 2:26

Hello. Hi.

Paul: 2:27

And Sarah's book is titled"How Not to Murder Your ADHD Kids". Nailed it. Nailed it. Because that, that was very possible at one point. I can understand how people would end up feeling like that. We were really at the end of our tether and it was causing a lot of problems for the family. And I'm not going to lie, I started listening to the book, Sarah, and I brought down. Because I recognised so much of myself in the book, not just my son.

Sarah: 2:55

Yeah. Oh

Paul: 2:57

a moment, it was watershed for me because I recognised so much in there that I didn't even realise was ADHD. I just thought it was normal. I just thought everybody did those things. specifically around cutting the labels out which I know you'll get to but the label thing blew me away that was just no way I'm I'm what that's not oh right so I'm gonna I'm gonna hand over to Sarah in just a moment because I want Sarah to share a little bit of her story and how she got where she is because it's a fantastic story and also to share about ADHD Liberty who's Sarah runs and has kindly agreed that we're going to be charity partners. So we're going to, we're going to mention them at the beginning of every show and try and support them as much as we can. Um, and ADHD Liberty is designed to help break the school to prison pipeline for ADHD and neurodiverse people. And I think that's phenomenal because having worked 10 years as a volunteer police officer, I've worked 15 years in retail and now, and I've always been very passionate about education and schools and reform of schools to bring them up to date with the way the world is now, not the way they were when we were all working in factories or becoming lawyers and never the twain shall meet. So I'm very, very passionate about all of that. And first of all, just to say, thank you very much for agreeing to partner with us, Sarah. I love what you're

Sarah: 4:21

Total, total pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Anybody who anybody who gets what we do and why we do it tends to get it passionately. You don't get, you don't get half arsed people who are like, Oh yeah, it's quite a good idea. People are going to go, Oh my God, yes, this is a major problem. Stop to stop, it's outrageous. Anybody who's passionate about it, you're welcome. We like your passion.

Paul: 4:42

What I loved about the book as well though is you explained it from scratch. And not in scientific terms, but in real terms. Here's what you'll see, here's what you might not realise is associated, potentially, and here's all of the associated symptoms and things that you'll experience. You need to know about these before you can do anything about them, but you need to know they're associated so that you don't just think that they're things that all parents go through.

Sarah: 5:08

Exactly.

Paul: 5:09

just the humour and the way that you dealt with things, as a, you could tell that you're ADHD, and it

Sarah: 5:16

A fair few people have said that. Oh, we can tell that was written by somebody with ADHD. yeah, yeah. yeah.

Paul: 5:22

Before we get into the, the top end of the story though, I, I would love to hear, How you went at school, because I know that that's a big part of the ending of the story,

Sarah: 5:32

it

Paul: 5:33

and I know it's something that's inspired you to write the books that you've written, cause there's more than one, there's three books at the moment, and I think that that would be a great

Sarah: 5:41

out. yeah okay back at school I went to very good infant school, very good junior school combined, and I was fully expected to pass my 12 I was always, in, in, in my 31 kids, and I was always either 4th or 5th. Eighth, 10th, or 11th. So I was well in the top 50% and 16 of the 31 passed to go to the grammar school. So when the results came out, everybody was very shocked and horrified. My headmaster was actually shocked and horrified before the results even came out, and he appealed that my massive failure. And then when the results came out, my mom and the headmaster appealed and they were both told that I had failed. I've never forgotten this, bearing in mind I was 12, I'm now 61, I was 12, I had failed, quote, so spectacularly, they couldn't put me through, right? Fast forward a year, end of the year at the secondary modern school, I came first in everything, bored stupid, headmistress rings my mother and says, this child shouldn't be at this school, I've got to replace at the grammar school. My mum gets sent the uniform list. She said it was full of lacrosse sticks and hockey sticks and, and I couldn't afford it. Because she'd just walked out for a whole new school uniform the year before. So I get it. She didn't tell me this till my 16th birthday. So she told me on my 16th birthday, Oh, by the way, you could have gone to Challeners, which is a very, very good school. Private school, round here, not private grammar school, sorry but I couldn't afford the school uniform. I was like, oh, okay, thanks. I spent four years at a really duff, and duff, secondary school. When I first went there, my form room was full of fifth years who were knitting because they were all having babies. They were all pregnant at 14, 15, 16. The height, the rage at the time was slashing your wrists, so they were all walking around with great big bandages on their wrists, and oh, this boy's dumped me, and I was like. I'm here to learn. I loved learning. I was like a sponge. I really wanted to learn. So I spent four years at a very, very, very duff scumbag college type school, not learning anything, being bored stupid. Um, and it wasn't until I was in my very early fifties, a counsellor said to me, has anybody ever suggested your ADHD? And I said, no. Never. Why? And she said because I think you are. Go home and google it. So I went home and googled it and I thought that was my whole life making sense because I read all the stuff about me. Quite, it just took my breath away. The stuff that really resonated with me was Always having to be right, always knowing best, doing everything fast, having no patience, low boredom threshold just all the, the forceful stuff, I was always, always thinking I was right, wanting everything my own way. If a game wasn't being played my way, not interested. And then all the other bits and pieces like interrupting people, being impulsive, being in debt, having addictions. I was lucky not to go too close to the addictions, but I did have a terrible food addiction, terrible. Sweets addiction, and shopping, spending money, shocking. So the whole thing made sense. Then I got diagnosed, I won't bore you with that story, but put it this way, it took four attempts to get diagnosed. I did eventually get diagnosed, courtesy of this wonderful counsellor, who kept saying to me, you are ADHD, go again. So I kept going back and back and back, and on the fourth time I got diagnosed. But then what was staggering for me was, Then I was, I trained to be a counsellor, retrained in my very late forties, early fifties to be a counsellor. I then started working with a lot of ADHD clients and they were telling me, some of them, about their dyspraxia and about their sensory processing disorder. And fewer than that were telling me about their dyscalculia. Cutting an exceptionally long story short, I then went on to be diagnosed with severe dyspraxia, with 1 percent processing and 1 percent motor skills, sensory processing disorder, and dyscalculia. And it was when I was diagnosed with dyscalculia, which for those who don't know is the numbers version of dyslexia, my entire life did make sense. Because people with dyscalculia cannot work out problems. And the 12 plus was problems. So instead of it being English, maths, French, history, any of those things, which the headmaster, she just sailed it, absolutely sailed it. It was all, if Rosie's got three bananas and four grapes and five pineapples, and Ben's got six pineapples and eight grapes and four, but how many is, and I was like, do I care? Am I interested in this? Is this sensible? Is this worthy of my time? That's what I was thinking. What a ridiculous question to ask. I was quite bright at 12. I was, so I just thought they're going to ask me ridiculous questions. I'm going to give them ridiculous answers. So I started writing down three million, two and a half, 33, 486. Any old nonsense I wrote on this thing, which is why, if you remember, the local authority said she has failed so spectacularly, we can't put her through. Actually, that was an undiagnosed ADHD person who was Bored to death in this exam that was asking ridiculous questions. Knew that if I, I've probably got English homework and maths homework, I'd have rather spent the time doing proper stuff. And people were asking me about bananas. I just wasn't interested. And when I explain to people about a dyscalculia brain when it comes to problems, it's not that we try and work them out and we can't. It's that there's a full stop. It's like a big full stop. That bit of the brain that should do that, not there. Don't work. It wasn't as if I was going, oh, eight and four and a banana and a pe Brain doesn't do it. Not interested. Just doesn't work that way. I always say to people now that when I was 12, it was 1975, right? I'm a very old person. But, we are 50 years this year away from that dreadful, spectacular failure at the 12 plus and ending up in the wrong school for four years. And the tragedy is, nothing has changed. If I was at school today, my dyscalculia still wouldn't be picked up. My ADHD still wouldn't be picked up. None of it would be picked up because we're not screening in schools. So wouldn't it be fantastic to say, Oh, that was 50 years ago. That went out with the arc. Now we're screening everybody. We know exactly what people have got. They're all getting the right support. They're all getting this, that, and the other. No, they're not. So, I'm now very passionate very passionate about the school to prison pipeline because it all starts at school when kids aren't having these conditions recognised, they're not being screened, they're not going off for a nice dyslexia assessment or a dyspraxia assessment, nobody's bothering, and then, what happens in their early teens, girls and boys, primarily boys, but a lot of girls as well, they get fed up, they get cheesed off, because they've tried, they've gone, I can't, I don't understand, I can't do this, I can't, and they get fed up, they think, oh, I'm just failing here, everybody else is achieving marvellously, I'm failing, I'm obviously thick, gormless, whatever, they start labelling themselves with all these dreadful, negative, terms. And they go, they go off, they don't go to school anymore. They nip off into town. And if they nip into town, they whip a can of Coke from Tesco's cause they're thirsty. And then they whip a sandwich from somewhere else. And before you know it, they're getting arrested for petty crime and bang, they're into the, on the slippery slope. And it's ever so slippery. As soon as you, as soon as you get on that slope, you are almost out of control. Cause as soon as older teenagers get hold of you, they will start getting you to go through small windows. Getting you to go in and nick some cigarettes because you won't be seen under the counter. It's very, very slippery, that slope. And I worked in prisons as a counsellor and this is, then it broke my heart because I realised all these people in prison, certainly all the people I work with, they're all ADHD. About roughly 50 percent are diagnosed as children, but not on the medication, which is why they're in prison. And the other 50%, exactly like me, clueless. Absolutely clueless. They know they think differently, they know they've got anger, a lot of them. They've all got insomnia, they've got dreadful sleep problems, they've got IBS, they've got loads and loads of indicators of ADHD, but they haven't got a clue that all that adds up to ADHD. Just to go to the end of the story, ADHD Liberty exists because I am very upset and Angry and every other emotion you can probably throw at it about the prison system. I'm angry because there are people in government who are still writing letters to us saying everything's going fine when it comes to ADHD in prison, Sarah. I don't think so. I've literally, the last email I've sent is for a boy in a prison. Who knows he's ADHD and can't get diagnosed in prison. And he's got a an appeal at the Court of Appeal. He's realized he's ADHD, can't get diagnosed in prison. And I get emails every single day, anything from, I would say one to about three maximum a day of people in prison who know that they're ADHD and can't get diagnosed in there, which is just outrageous. When. Most of the prison population, I won't say all, but most of the prison population is ADHD. And a good chunk of those have also got autism. And the dreadful thing is, we are still, in this day and age, we like to think that we're enlightened, and we're person centred, and we put people first, and we take mental health seriously, and all those lovely things, and if you can be anything, be kind, and all this. Yes, we like to think we're like that, but actually, We are just locking up people like we did in Victorian times, and in those times we called them asylums, and now we call them prisons. They are chock a block with mental health problems. I'd add in autism because a lot of these ADHD assessments we're doing are also autistic assessments. There's a lot of people that have got both. There's a heck of a lot of people in prison who would meet the criteria for PTSD and complex PTSD. And that's largely because they've come from undiagnosed ADHD parents. So their parents have been, and I'm going to run off a list now, but I've worked with clients, with parents, with all of these. Drug dealers and drug addicts. Very severe alcoholics, mums who drank three bottles of sherry a day. Kids in prison who've lost their parents through addiction very young, so they were 16 when their mum died, 17, 18, that sort of age when mum died, and dad's a sociopath or dad's a psychopath, and dad's a nutter, dad's left, dad's very violent, the stories of these people. Kids that end up in prison. They've come from the most horrendous backgrounds. A lot of them have obviously come from care. They've been removed from undiagnosed ADHD parents with neglect, abuse. Quite a lot of them are undernourished in prison. I work with one client who was very, very short and it turned out that him and his uncle, Other sibling had also been in prison and both of them had to be on injections to strengthen their bones because their bones were so weak they were malnourished from lack of childhood nutrition. What makes me angry and sad in equal measure is that we are locking up people who are in prison, largely because their parents had ADHD, probably their grandparents as well. All of it went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. So you'll find loads of boys who go, Oh, my nan's got bipolar, or my mum's diagnosed with psychosis. My dad's schizophrenic. Hang on, your ADHD, highly likely that's come from. Dad, Mum, Grandma, whatever. So the amount of misdiagnosis in these boys is absolutely phenomenal in their parents, whereas the kids just end up in prison. I've got clients, my next book coming out is called The Prison Counselor. I've purposely not put ADHD in the title because I didn't want people to be put off. I didn't want people to think, oh God, here she goes on again, banging on about ADHD. I didn't want to put people off. Also, I've said in this book that my own ADHD diagnosis didn't come until I was 11 years in to having worked in the prisons. I started working in the prisons in 2004. I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until 2015. I didn't go into the prisons thinking, oh, this is going to be full of me mates. I'm going to find loads of lovely ADHD people in here. Not at all. I was as shocked as anybody when I was diagnosed in 2015. But at that point, I was in my third of four prisons. And at that point, I suddenly thought, oh my God. Oh my God, this is why I get on with them all. This is why they relate to me and love me, because I'm a very F off person, if it don't suit me, naff off. I don't have much tolerance. If something, I don't like it or whatever. I haven't ever got into trouble with the police, touch wood, never, never can be sure, but haven't ever. But I have. I've had arguments with people, I have massive arguments with people like the Inland Revenue, the DWP, I'm straight at their throats. It's not that I've been clever and managed to avoid prison, it's just that my rage and anger has gone down the drain. in the direction of authorities and people who are incompetent, that's where mine goes. But I'm lucky because I've never punched anybody, I haven't done drugs, I've managed to just stay on the right side of the law. But I can so understand how these boys don't, and girls. I always say, we don't have to forget the girls, only 4 percent of the prison population is female. However, one of my therapists has worked in female prisons for 20 years, She's ADHD and she said, Sarah, it's exactly the same in the female prisons. It's pretty much all of them. So I don't forget the girls. There's only 4 percent of them, but we think most of them are ADHD as well. I've only worked in male prisons, but I can say hand on heart. I, when I came out of the prisons, I said it's roughly eight or nine out of 10. And then I. Completely randomly on a Facebook group for ADHD came across a mental health nurse who'd worked in the prison system for 20 years. And she said to me, she said, Sarah, I've been keeping an unofficial record for the last 20 years, and it's 85 percent of them are ADHD. And I said, Oh my God, how random is that? My absolute random figure was 10. 85%. And I was like, wow, how unbelievable. And she said, no, you're right. She said, I've been keeping an unofficial record. It's 85%. So we've ever since then, that was in 2015, 16, I've been banging a lone drum. That drum is now no longer alone. I've got people with me now, but for six, eight years, I was saying, Excuse me, the prisons are full of ADHD, it's disgusting, do something about it. And it. wasn't until I linked up with some police officers who are also ADHD, and they've helped with this hugely, and now it's much more talked about, and change is happening. Change is happening at last, but it literally, this year, 2025, I've been talking about this for 10 years, and it's only in the last two, maximum three, that people have started to talk about it.

Paul: 19:55

the scary thing for that, with me, is that there are so many things I could jump off onto. I can feel my shiny object syndrome going crazy when you're talking. And there's almost every talking point you raised, I had something I wanted to say about it, and I wanted to interrupt you and tell you what I thought. Not because I want to be rude, but because my brain would let, and it has, right? I've let go of some of the things. And now I've forgotten what they were that I wanted to interrupt you about, right? That's, and it's, but it's scary and it's horrible. My mum does the same thing. My mum, yeah, I do. I, I, I, if I'm really in, I have to say something about it, it gets written down and I'll come back to it. But half the time, I can't remember why I wrote down what I wrote down. Um, but the, the, the terrifying thing for me is, I'm looking at my son at the moment and we're looking at assessment and we've been told it's seven years to be diagnosed. At the current rates. And that, that queue is growing. That's in our local authority. The other local authority near us is four to five years. At seven years, he's seven years old now, he's going to be well into senior school before he gets formally diagnosed. We're very lucky that

Sarah: 21:33

forget it,

Paul: 21:34

junior school and infant school are very supportive. They're very helpful and they're keen to, they don't wait for assessments to be done to treat children in their own individual capacity, which is brilliant. I love that. However, I know that. Senior school's going to be a different story.

Sarah: 21:51

It's good, but it's not good enough. Because if he's ADHD, the medication is going to absolutely transform him. And I get very what's the word? Frustrated. No, worse, stronger than that. Annoyed. Anybody who thinks it's okay to tell anybody that there's a seven year waiting list for something, no, just absolutely not. Absolutely not. You, you cannot do that to a child. I don't know if you know this, a psychiatrist told me this years ago and I've never heard it from anybody else, but this ADHD psychiatrist did tell me when I said to him something about my memory, I said, Oh, my memory is shocking. And he said, don't be surprised. He said the brain okay. This is the quote. A brain needs to think a thought for so many split seconds for it to be stored as a memory. And an ADHD brain rarely thinks a thought long enough for it to be stored as a memory. Yeah? So if you think, if your son's seven and they're saying, oh, go away till you're 14, that's seven years of education, most of which isn't going to go in, because he won't be thinking of the thoughts long enough for them to be stored. So no, we do not accept seven years. We go different routes. We go NHS, second choice, right to choose. We go private, we go charities, we go some other route, because it is, it is not acceptable to say to anybody, and I'm not just talking about ADHD people here, it's not acceptable to say to anybody, you've got to wait for seven years. No, it's not.

Paul: 23:13

then it's, everyone I speak to has this battle. Everyone. I don't know another parent that doesn't have, or it's a battle. Cause we thought we were quite lucky at the beginning. We had a doctor who supported us, we had a school who supported us. Oh yeah, we'll get him, we'll get him. And then it starts with the, oh we've suspended right to choose at the moment because it's too busy. Cause we're getting too many people referring to us who are also going through the NHS route and we're doubling up on maybe if your NHS route wasn't so long, we wouldn't need to go right to choose, therefore it wouldn't be so swamped. Is it any surprise? There's a reason we're brought in right to choose, cause the NHS was swamped. And then there's the whole conversation around that's fine, but you can get it done privately, but we at the NHS don't have to accept that assessment and we don't have to. If you want medication, you have to come through the NHS.

Sarah: 23:57

And that

Paul: 23:58

And it becomes so complex and ridiculous.

Sarah: 24:01

Yes, it does. And, and

Paul: 24:02

so

Sarah: 24:03

no, I just want to

Paul: 24:04

no, I was,

Sarah: 24:05

It's pretty much the same all over the country that there are pockets where it's working. I'll tell you one pocket. My very first prison boy, very first ever client in a prison, prison, his daughter is raging ADHD and she's only five. And she just managed to get assessed and diagnosed at the age of five through chems. I'm trying to think where they are, Enfield. North London, Enfield, on the border of Hertfordshire. And I think they first referred to her when she was 2 or 3, because it was very obvious from birth, really, that she was very severely ADHD. Both her parents were ADHD. And she's only, she's just turned 6 this year, but the actual diagnosis was last year when she was 5. So there are pockets where you can get a review, a proper assessment via CAMHS, and you get the right treatment, and she's going to be diagnosed, not diagnosed, she's going to be medicated, she needs to be and that's happened, so that's not a seven year waiting list, she's been diagnosed by the age of five. Because the organisation I run, my sort of bread and butter job, if you like, is I run Headstuff ADHD Therapy. Now that came about because when I qualified as a counsellor, pretty much the same time I was diagnosed. And I thought I'll just pop ADHD on my website. Don't know if I'll ever meet another ADHD person, ever, but I'll pop it on, popped it on and then became a specialist overnight because suddenly people came to me. At that point, a lot of counsellors for ADHD were not coming out of the closet. They were well back in their closets. They were terrified that it would lose some clients. I, mouth almighty. I, when I was diagnosed I was thrilled. I was absolutely thrilled to know that I'd got something. It had a name, and I became very what's the word dynamic about it, I was like, Yeah, I've got this! Other people have probably got it and don't know. And it's It's been life transforming for me, it's validated everything I've been through. So I was out and proud from the minute I got it, straight on my website, and then I had loads and loads and loads of people come to me and go, Oh my god, do you not find it loses your client? I'm like, no, it's getting me loads of clients. Don't be ridiculous, I'm getting swamped. So I've ended up with a team now, I've not counted them lately, but we're, we're approaching a hundred, somewhere in the 80s, 90s. Most of them fully qualified counsellors. This is where we differ from most people. Um, ADHD coaching courses are popping up ten a penny, popping up ten a day. It's ridiculous, but they're not, they're not great. Some of them are good, most of them are not. They're very, they're far too short and they don't cover enough for you to work ADHD person. Show me an ADHD person who doesn't have trauma. Who doesn't have relationship issues, doesn't have addiction issues, doesn't have self esteem issues. We've all got varying degrees of all of this and that needs a counsellor. It doesn't need a coach. So we do have some coaches on our team. We've got about 10 or 15 of them, and that, but these are very, very highly qualified ones. They're not somebody who's done a six week course. Do you know what I mean? They're people that have studied for years, coaching. But the vast majority of us are fully qualified counsellors. So, That's my bread and butter job. Although I, and I did counsel for a long time. I counseled between 2013 and roughly 2020. And then I stopped. Unless people are absolutely desperate. And if a teenager's on their way to prison and adamant that they're going to carry on that path. Or adamant they're not ADHD. I do, I do like them. I had one of them recently. Absolutely adamant he's not ADHD. But doing it large on the drugs, on the offending, on the promiscuity, all of it. And I had to convince him he was ADHD. I don't mind those. I do a challenge, but I don't see clients regularly anymore. I just don't have time. So now what I'm doing is, I do a lot of training, which I love. Go into schools all over the UK. Just about to go to Australia for two months. I've already booked into four schools in Australia hoping for more. But I'm doing four schools in Australia. I'm also doing a talk at Brisbane University about the link between ADHD and sex offending, which isn't something a lot of people like to talk about, but I know about it because I've worked with ADHD sex offenders. So now I do training a lot and I write books. Um, I've just written The Prison Counselor, which is all about the amount of ADHD in prisons and where it's hiding, where it's hidden. with lots of boys who've been told they've outgrown it it was a childhood behavioural disorder, so they've been taken off their meds, and then bang, where do they find themselves? Within a year or two, they're in prison. So there's that cohort. Then you've got the ones who were diagnosed as a child and genuinely, genuinely themselves think they've outgrown it, and it was a childhood thing, and they don't even believe they've got it anymore, so you have to talk them round into thinking, no, actually, potentially, it's what got them diagnosed. Put you in here in the first place. Then you've got a massive chunk who've got absolutely no idea that they've got anything, but they are prolific offenders. They might have been in prison 20 times. And a lot of their offending is often to do with self medicating their ADHD. So a lot of people are in there because they've been alcohol, let's use alcohol as the easy example. You'll get quite a lot of people in prison who are alcoholics and all their offending has either been stealing. stealing. stealing to fund alcohol, stealing alcohol, getting into fights when they're drunk. So often GBH, ABH, even attempted murder. I've worked with people when they've been really rolling drunk. In fact, one boy was done for murder. He didn't actually do anything. He just kicked somebody, but anyway, he was so drunk because he was ADHD and self medicating that he was actually in prison for murder. He didn't murder them. I must have to make that clear, but he was like an accessory. Then they're in prison for things like criminal damage. Which they do when they're drunk, they'll kick something or smash a pot by accident or whatever. And then they get put in prison for a fray. A lot of boys are in there for a fray. So that's purely somebody who's self medicating their alcohol. And I've met loads of them that are in prison for all that sort of thing. And also domestic violence, because when they're drunk, That's when they will scream at their girlfriend, when that's when they might chuck something, that's when they'll be more heavy handed than they might be when if they were sober. So domestic violence is also linked with the self medicating. So the prisons are chock a block with ADHD in all different capacities. So diagnosed, undiagnosed, some of them think they've got autism. It's quite fascinating going back through all my notes, which I've just done to write this book, all my prison notes, which I've kept. And there was one boy who, in fact, it was that five year old's father who said he thought he was autistic and could I bring in an autism screener, which I did. I took it in and he didn't score anything. And I took it away. And then this was years before my ADHD diagnosis. I had no clue to think, I wonder if you've got something else or, I just literally did as I was told, bring an ADA, bring an autism screener in. He didn't score high enough. We thought nothing more of it. It was about another seven, eight years before I went back to that boy, found him, I got him diagnosed with ADHD. There's loads of people in there that know they've got something going on, don't know what it is. One other group that's in there, there's a lot of boys in prison who hate themselves, because they know that the minute they go out, They're going to do something dodgy and they're going to end up back in prison, but they don't know why they're going to do it again. Classic example is a lovely, lovely boy I work with in Aylesbury, Young Offenders. He said, oh, he said, I just wish, Sarah, that I could be the nice bloke that I am here, sitting, talking to you, being nice, having a cup of tea, being sensible and grown up. He said, but I know, the minute I walk out of prison, he said, I'm going to see a handbag. I'm going to see a purse or I'm going to see a car door that's open. And he said, and I turned into that other one. And I can't, I know, I can't not do that because I've tried so many times not to do it. Now that boy was one of the ones who was diagnosed ADHD as a child and taken off the meds. And if I'd have been counselling him now, I'd have been saying, I know, I know, I know. Why now? It's your impulsivity. It's your compulsivity because you've done that in the past and it's given you excitement. You know you're not going to be able to not do that when you get out. And that's why You think, that you know you can't be a good person because those temptations are still going to be there, and you know that you haven't got the, whatever it is within. He used to say, I'm weak willed, I've got no moral compass,

Paul: 32:06

I've got no

Sarah: 32:07

and what was the other thing he'd say? Something like, I haven't got strength of character, and he used to really criticise himself for that And I really regret that I didn't know more at that time to say no, it's not that. It's actually your compulsive brain that is going to not allow you to walk past a handbag or a purse or an opened car. And that's a big chunk of them in prison. They hate themselves because they know that when they get out they're going to do the same thing. And that's because they're not medicated for their ADHD. So of course they're going to keep doing the same stuff. That's a tragedy. I'm sorry.

Paul: 32:39

And having worked 10 years, 10 years on one side of the thin blue line myself, I can see a lot of what you're seeing in the experiences I had, and I understand a lot more now. And I was I've, there's a whole, I'll be honest, Sarah, me and you could talk about this subject for hours and hours and hours, and it's probably a podcast on its own. What I would say is that I think there's, there's a couple of things that particularly make you stand out to me, as opposed to a lot of the other. ADHD experts that I've heard, or certainly talk around parenting, and one is that you identify the symptoms of ADHD children, but you also believe that some of the symptoms need to be managed. And it's not a case of just, oh they're ADHD, so that's an excuse, and just let them get away with it, and that leads to the behaviour that lands them in prison. And a specific example was, you were talking about lying, and we, ADHD people can lie for excitement, or because they don't want to, cause it's boring, they're making it moric. All of those things, and your statement at the end of the book was, and it needs to be nipped in the bud now. And I love that, because, too soft. leads to bad situations down the line, but at the same time, we need to help people understand how to cope with, with what they've got, how to understand that they need to have something that they need to cope with half the

Sarah: 34:02

100%. And that's a, that's a, go on, sorry, carry on. no, I was going to

Paul: 34:07

I was going to say that

Sarah: 34:07

a brilliant one to pick on, because when I say about lying, there are some idiots who go, I've never lied, that's outrageous that you should even suggest it. No, not everybody lies, but a lot of people do. And I did, but I only did through my teens. How typical is that? Just through the puberty thing, that's when I lied. And it was only ever. to get something. So I would say, Oh, I've had a really, I actually use this one. I say to my mum, Oh, we had a really pathetic salad at lunchtime. I'm absolutely ravenous. And she said, Oh, did you? That's outrageous. Go and have some more bread, have some more, we hadn't, but it was to get something. I used to steal out my mum's purse again to get food when I was out compulsive eating. And I did put arms and legs on things to make things more exciting. But the reason it has been nipped in the bard, is, as you've said

Paul: 34:52

been

Sarah: 34:52

it doesn't lead anywhere good. You can't keep on doing that because ultimately, I hate to say it, but pretty much everybody in prison is a damn good liar.

Paul: 35:00

everybody a

Sarah: 35:01

You don't, get many honest drug dealers. They're very good at lying, very good at pretending, very good at hiding. And that's where it leads to. It leads to dangerous activities. Um, so What I always say that with these traits, like lying, brilliant example, is you need to explain to a child. So If you catch a child out, don't have a go at them there and then. Always leave it till the next day, so it's completely random, and always pick when they're in a good mood. But just say, actually, you might not even know this, but your brain actually does some of these things. And some of them are fantastic, absolutely phenomenal, and you're going to achieve massively. But there's a couple, this is one of them that you've got to be aware of. Because your brain naturally does want to put arms and legs, oh, lying's not the greatest of words, not being skimpy with the truth is better. or putting arms and legs on things.

Paul: 35:45

and legs

Sarah: 35:45

And the way you word it is very, very important. If you make them understand that that's the way their brain kind of leads them, but that's the sort of thing that's going to get them in trouble. So actually, to try and be aware of it, and also never to worry about admitting the truth. If they can, if they can lie one day, they're never going to tell you at the time that they've lied and they're really sorry. But if you give them a day, 48 hours, and always give them various ways of doing it. I think I've said this in the book. Allow them to write it, text it, voice note it, put a note under your bedroom door. Whatever way works for them, that they can say, Actually, you are right, I was lying. But I've got, I've got back to you within 48 hours, so I don't get told off, do I? Mm

Paul: 36:27

particularly I love about what you've done. We've talked a lot today about the negative consequences of having near DHD and the path it can lead into prison and the serious consequences of that. But what I really liked was when we first talked and you sold it to me as when you're talking to a young person, it's very much a superpower. And I believe this. Absolutely believe this. It's a superpower and it's a gift to have ADHD. It doesn't mean you're going to end up in prison. It's just that the system has failed so many people and never taught them with, never taught them ways to deal with ADHD, never gave them ways to cope. And never had the support mechanisms in place in order to make that happen, compounded generationally. So I just wanted to, as a kind of last note before we sign the episode off, is I really love that, the way that you pitched that to me, in that it's really a privilege to have ADHD,

Sarah: 37:26

Oh, 100%! 100%! percent Yeah! and you're absolutely right, the people that are in prison, they have not had the, they've not had anything, they've not had parents who've been able to support them, they've not had the diagnosis at the right time, they've certainly not been medicated, they've not had the support at school, they've had very little, and that's why they end up where they are. But people who are supported, one of my clients, my private clients, this year, he qualifies as a doctor. And he's going to be a phenomenal doctor, because he's very compassionate, very kind, very caring, and he's just done seven years training to be a doctor. We end up in very high places as well. And I always say to people that, go, oh, it's a disability, and it's a SEND need, and it's a SENCO job, and it's a this and a that. No, excuse me. I was never a SEND kid. I was never under a SENCO.

Paul: 38:08

a

Sarah: 38:08

do I own several businesses, several properties, and a charity? Yes. Are all the very successful people in the world. When I say successful, politicians, actors, musicians, comedians, all these people, sports people. Who's the top in every single, area you look at? They're ADHD. Our best politicians are ADHD. The, the, Hollywood is chock a block with ADHD. Everybody from Whoopi Goldberg, to Tom Hanks, to Tom Cruise, to Britney Spears, to Justin Timberlake, to Will. I. Am, to, to everybody that's anybody is ADHD. And it's the same in the sports. You look at every single sport who are the ones that are absolutely outstanding and brilliant

Paul: 38:51

outstanding and

Sarah: 38:52

Simone Biles being just one example. So, yes, I am, I am the prison's champion, if you like, and I'm the one who would always put those boys in prison first, because nobody else does. And I do, because I know loads of them, and I absolutely love them all, and I know that they're not bad people. they've just had a real tough start to life, and they've ended up in prison. And I always say to people, please don't hate them. They hate themselves way more than you ever need to hate them. They've got crippling low self esteem, they think they're a waste of space, some of them even take their own lives because they just think the world's better off without me. And it's not. If we can actually get to them, get them diagnosed and medicated, which we've done with a lot of my ex prisoners, they're all out now, they're all in successful relationships, they're all working, they're all T Total, Don't, not doing drugs, not getting into fights, because they're diagnosed and medicated. So, I will always focus on those boys in prison, cause it's nobody else's top priority, But it's mine to change the criminal justice system in this country. We need to be mandatory screening for ADHD. But not at the end. We don't just need to be doing it in the criminal justice system. We need to be doing it in schools. We need to catch these kids when they are five.

Paul: 39:58

when they are

Sarah: 39:59

Not 25. And it's all too late. Their self esteem's been destroyed. They've got a criminal record as long as your arm. And, and they, their mental health is is bad, they're probably addicted to something, parents are dead. That's too late. Let's start screening them at five. Let's pick up as many people as quickly as we possibly can, get the right support in place, get the right meds in place if necessary, and then watch them thrive. Because They will, they absolutely will.

Paul: 40:25

absolutely will. I love it. And that's exactly why I wanted to have you as a charity partner.'cause I think it's a fantastic initiative and a fantastic mission and vision to champion as part of the show And it certainly aligns with my own personal experience. And so looking forward to, and I think what, what, what I'd like to do, Sarah, is we'd love to catch back up with you again in about six months or so when you've been to Australia and you've come back. And to hear a little bit more about how you're getting on with some of the initiatives, you've got the tests and trials that you've got going on with

Sarah: 40:54

six months is a perfect time because we have got pilots and trials going on with so many different places, homeless organizations, addiction, prisons, probation, all over. So in six months I'll have a lot more facts and figures for everybody. But I will just say now, the very early pilots that we've got the figures for, they're all coming in exactly that figure, 85%.

Paul: 41:13

85%.

Sarah: 41:13

It's a big problem in the criminal justice system. It's a big problem, but we're up, we're up to it. We are going to solve this because we're passionate about it and we've got a fantastic team. And I'm thrilled that you're, going to join up with us as well. I thank you for that because we need more exposure. for what we're doing.

Paul: 41:30

And if you're listening along to this at home watching this and you want to find out a bit more about the work of ADHD, Liberty or Headstuff the links are all in the bottom of the show notes. Please do go along, have a look. There's some awesome, awesome resources down there. Thank you very much for an exciting episode, Sarah. I loved hearing that story. I'm sure everyone at home did as well. And I will speak to you in the not too distant future. Thank you, bye bye. Amazing, thank you so much. Thank you