Paul: 0:29

Good afternoon and welcome back for another episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers, season two. Oh, that's actually four. Sorry. Season two. This season, as I've said before, we're focusing much more on the stories of our fascinating guests, because as I found through season one, pretty much everybody who comes along got where they are almost accidentally because they've been chasing their passions and they've been chasing their why. Today's guest, I suspect. I don't know for definite, but I suspect Pierre is no different to any of the rest of us. Pierre, thank you very much for coming along and being an awesome guest for us.

Pierre: 1:04

Thank you. Thank you so much, Paul, for having me. It's a real pleasure, and yeah, looking forward to a very good discussion.

Paul: 1:10

A bit of background for Pierre. He's the founder of Beyond Satisfaction, which is both a talent agency specialising in recruitment and also training solutions for hospitality and the customer service sectors. Over 10 years of experience managing luxury hospitality operations at renowned hotels like the Four Seasons, George V and the Landmark in London. Pierre launches agency in 2020. I think I can see a common connection there with a lot of other business owners that we've spoke to. Beyond Satisfaction combines quality focused recruitment with specialised training, empowering frontline staff to become brand ambassadors, and driving long term retention for clients across the UK. So Pierre's goal is to elevate customer experiences through a high calibre workforce. I love what you're doing there. And. The hospitality and customer service sectors, the two sectors that go very much hand in hand and certainly speaks to my previous experience as well from background in retail. Tell me first of all though, Pierre, how did you get involved in luxury hospitality in the first place?

Pierre: 2:15

That's yeah, that's, that goes back from a long time ago when I was, when I was a teenager back in France. I've always wanted to work for that. I was really always a people person and obviously was always something I wanted to work for. My dad has been working in that industry, managing hotels. He's been on the management side. But I, yeah, that's always something I wanted to do because customer service was something I've always wanted to be working in. And I knew that hospitality was a great field to do that. So I actually, funny enough, when I did my bachelor degree and I started to study and get my first opportunity there. I wasn't necessarily targeting luxury hotels but yeah, the opportunity gave me that and then I stayed in that industry. But I also work for less luxury hotels that are still high end establishments, but not necessarily luxury. And I realized that sometimes you still have the same problems wherever you are. You still provide amazing customer service just with different expectations and different types of customers. So it was really good to see also both sides. So obviously a lot of the expertise I used today are related to that experience I built in those establishments.

Paul: 3:26

So you say you have a passion for customer service, where do you think that stems from? Why, cause I don't know a lot of people that, Certainly from my side of things, I don't know many people that get into retail because they love customer service. It's it's a job that approaches people and then you as you go through life, you figure out that you enjoy customer service, right?

Pierre: 3:44

So yeah, actually to be honest the main reason why I like so much customer service and I'm passionate about it and that half of what I do is about training people on that is more about the reason why say more about the why before the what, which is what makes a difference in customer service. I'm more passionate about that almost than customer service itself. There's one way that you really need to take, that you really need to focus on when it comes to customer service is understanding the power of your people and then understanding how important it is to Take care of your people in order to take care of your clients. Part of the companies I've been working for, one of them was Four Seasons, the George Cinq. In fact, I was, it was working seven years there because I was already working as a student there for two years before I started as a full time. And probably that company is the one that inspired me the most. And that justified at least more than half of the reason as to why I started my own business. It's because over there, the reason why Four Seasons is probably one of the best. Hospitality brand in the world is not because they have the most stunning hotels, the best locations the high end restaurants, but it's mostly because they deliver amazing customer service because they understood one thing. You start by focusing on your people. You recruit the right attitude, you recruit the right profile, and you. Take care of that profile moving forward, like you would take care of a gym. And that's where the importance of training, induction, but continuous training moving forward is key, because only happy people, only trained people, only people who take pleasure in what they do, who understand the why behind the what, can deliver customer service in an amazing way. And that's one of the first thing I say. To every at the start of every of my courses I deliver is that I don't deliver that courses for your clients. I deliver it for you, but ultimately, it will make an impact on your client. And once you start like this, you also change the mindset in the room because they're like, wow, that person is there for me, not to address the mistakes I've made with clients or else. And obviously, that's how you get a great environment for learning for them, is they understand that you are there to help them, rather than address things, if that makes sense.

Paul: 6:06

I have a soft spot in my heart for both retail and hospitality because I know how hard both sets of employees work long hours, thankless task, and generally a lot of the time, the only time people come and speak to you is when something's gone wrong. But also because both industries are very adept at finding employees who are, have limited or no experience in that particular industry. And you nailed it early on in what you said there you hire for talent, you hire for aspirations and motivations and energy and enthusiasm, not because they can demonstrate previously having done the role. How do you help businesses identify that as you move towards management? Because management, then you, there is a certain requirement there for leadership capabilities, but again, there is. Scope to employ people who have limited leadership capabilities in terms of experience, but have the right skills and qualities. So how do you help them? How do you help educate your clients around that is what I'm trying to say.

Pierre: 7:12

So I think the main thing is you can be very good at doing something. The number one key in customer service is consistency. And the number one way in order to be consistent is having the managers making sure that the team are applying Those customer service methods are having the correct attitude with the client on a regular basis. So it starts with the manager, but you can be very good at your job. It doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be very good in managing people in doing the job. It's two different things. And I've realized that a lot. Even myself throughout my career, mostly at the start of my career, I was sometimes Promote, promoting people where they were very good at the job, but they struggle at the beginning when it comes to managing people. Obviously, I would say to give you a first answer when it comes to the training itself, I would say if you want to be consistent when it comes to customer service, definitely training the managers, not only the guests facing team, because they are the one who's going to ensure that consistency moving forward. And it's a lot through Inspiring your people. You lead through influence. You don't lead through authority. And that's exactly the same way it comes to customer service. So for any of those courses. When I, that are around how to get your people to apply those those values on a regular basis. There's a lot of leadership things around around the topics I cover. And a lot of it is how can you build an environment of performance management that is oriented towards customer service. That is very important. And when it comes to finding recruiting managers finding the right person, I think you need to look not only for the correct attitude, but you also need to look for that correct mindset. Which is, because again, that mindset, if the person comes with the correct mindset, you will directly influence your people to deliver great customer service. If a manager is an amazing leader, but don't have any belief of how customer service is important, how can he or she inspire the team to do that? Because you need to look up to someone. So obviously, yeah, that's really important to look at that mindset and make them realize that in order for their team to be applying successful customer service on a regular basis. It starts by, of course, checking on them, but also by influencing them by your own passion, by how important customer service. Not sure if I replied your question. I went through different ways, but yeah.

Paul: 9:33

I like it. like how did you end up moving then from France into the UK? What was the story behind that move?

Pierre: 9:39

You know what? The funny part behind that is I never really planned to move to the UK, but One thing you have in hospitality is obviously, most of the time when you work for luxury hotel brands, they are worldwide brands. They have different branches in different cities around the world and countries around the world. So sometimes I was receiving regularly offerings for, to work in other countries. I've been working already for At the start of my career for a year in China, obviously now I was getting a little bit older, so I didn't want it to move that far if I was moving. And I had that opportunity at the Landmark Hotel and they told me, do you want to to move there? And I was like, yeah, it's okay. Yeah. Of course it's a great position. I went through the interview process. It went super well and got recruited. And then I moved from the day to like from a month to another. Then yes, stay there for almost five years. COVID hit I was still in the UK, met my partner and then she was working at that hotel. She's not from France obviously, during COVID, couldn't really go back to France during that period. And I was like probably that's the time to start my own adventure. So then here I am, now probably eight years after but yeah like we discussed privately, I'm not, That's far from France, so I can still go back home when I when I want. But here is my second home or primary home in same level than France.

Paul: 11:00

How then a lot of businesses who start up doing either talent or training do specifically one or the other. They don't tend to do both, or they have a partner that can help them with one or the other. Why did you decide that your agency would do both?

Pierre: 11:15

That's a very good question because I have that question coming to me. I wouldn't say on a regular basis, but from time to time think it follows a little bit the same, not a little bit, a lot the same mindset that I learned from at the fourth season when I was working for fourth season and that I wanted to apply to my business. So I started my business as a training company and then I brought up the recruitment and I almost saw it as a logical continuity to my offering. Because. Again, you can only provide great customer service. You can only have your people to deliver a customer service that you wish to receive yourself everywhere you go. If you start from the recruitment stage, from finding those people. Of course, training is key, but you also start by finding the right attitude. And again, I learned that a lot from Four Seasons. In fact, Four Seasons is one of the only company that will sometimes recruit people for managerial roles that do not necessarily have the experience. But have the correct mindset and the correct attitude. And then they will teach the skills, which is exactly what I apply to my business and what I'm doing on a regular basis, helping my clients with. And the good thing also is that, talking about continuity, is that I can join both offers. So if tomorrow I recruit for someone, I am always asking, do you want me to recruit for you? Train them as well, not only on my own content, but also on your induction content. So they arrive fully ready. And again, when it comes to customer service, and Hospitality in general, either it's first entry roles or more senior roles, it is key to arrive ready because it's busy environments, it's always, you're always required from week one to already be operational. Giving that time and giving someone who has the time to do it for you train them on the things that will really make a difference, so they arrive ready, but that will also have an impact on the outcome. the employee's retention, they're more likely to stay longer. And the more you make an impact on the employee's retention, the more you make an impact on the customer retention. So I think it's also understanding how much your people and your clients, both are related. You cannot take care of one without taking care of the others. Did that make sense?

Paul: 13:37

If I can ask, what's the most unlikely hire that you've either personally made or you've seen a client make on your recommendation?

Pierre: 13:45

I would say that the most unlikely hire is a bit, like I mentioned, some profiles that do not necessarily on their CV, match with what they were looking for. But then when you go through the interviewing process, the specific assessments that you send them, when you maintain that close communication with your clients through your recruitment plan that you make bespoke for your customers, you realize actually that a lot of different aspects of the The person, the candidate's profile is actually matched with what they are looking for. And that is very exciting to demonstrate that to the customers, to convince them, because they don't necessarily start to, they don't necessarily get convinced because I think when it comes to recruitment, we have a tendency to give too much importance to the CV, to the background. I don't really work this way, of course I look at that. But again I see it as important as the attitude, the mindset, the values because again, you can always teach those things and I'm even assisting with that. That's why I like to push that because I think recruitment should be always. Quality recruitment, rather than a speed, or rather than a speedy or quality or quantity focused recruitment. You should always be quality focused. Okay,

Paul: 15:00

But we only ever recruit when something's gone wrong, right? And all of a sudden there's a red button to press because, oh my god, how do we ever hit the service levels we need to hit, or how do we staff our team and we need somebody now or yesterday, right?

Pierre: 15:13

now that's very true. I think sometimes that's the premise. It's important to not really be, either it comes to recruitment or training, a lot of training, to not be reactive, but to be proactive. I sometimes refuse to onboard clients. We're telling me I'm calling you because you're my last resource. And if it doesn't if there's no improvement after your training, then I will start firing people for the worst things I've heard. And I think that's not necessarily the best approach to have, because if, That's one of the things I say in a diplomatic way, is that if you're calling me at that stage, it's already too late. Or, not necessarily too late, but you should have called me before. But again a training should never be about addressing things. It should be about shaping your people as you would shape a gem. A gym, sorry.

Paul: 16:02

What's at the heart of your business then, Pierre, like in all of our businesses? And you strike me as somebody who's quite self aware. What's the why behind what you do? What gets you up on a morning? What motivates you to carry on when times are tough?

Pierre: 16:18

Definitely the Knowing the impact of what I do mix on the people. Cause at the end of the day, I think that you can only receive amazing customer service from happy people who take pleasure in doing what they do, even in the most tough moments. And we both know how much you can face tough moments when it comes to customer service, when you have to deal with a lot of clients at the same time. And when I have those attendees coming to see me for a second session that I deliver. Or when I receive testimonials or feedback from my clients saying the impact of what you made really changed a lot in their jobs. I think we both know as well that customer service rules or hospitality rules they are sometimes time consuming jobs. You spend a lot of time at work so it represents a certain percentage of your life. You better enjoy what you do, because it may, Impact you personally. There's a lot of personal to customer service. There's, it's ego related, it's pride related, it's emotional related, it's how you take all this personally. And when I see the impact it makes on the people it makes me proud and happy. But I also know that it will make an amazing impact on the clients because they always come with amazing examples on how they handle something and how happy the clients were. And again, that's why both are related is because you don't start taking pleasure in customer service because you like customer service. No, you start taking pleasure in delivering customer service. When you see the impact it has on your clients. So again, be good in what you do, so it makes an impact on your clients. So it makes you happy and proud, and you want to do it even more. So both are again very related. It goes both ways.

Paul: 18:43

Do you think that you then reflect that in your marketing messaging? Because obviously you have to market yourself to, to get clients to build leads up. Do you find that helps make you easy to differentiate from your competitors who are maybe more volume focused or short term stop gap measures, right?

Pierre: 19:01

That is a very good question, because I took, I really like that question, because I think like you said, the messaging needs, the messaging that you have needs to include, What you're about, what you're passionate about, why you're waking up every morning, and what makes you go through the tough times. I think you need to include that because that's what makes you unique. And that's what's, that is what also is making you stand out. And we can all have our business owners our own way of standing out. By being ourselves, by putting out there what again, making us wake up every morning. And also our vision related to it. Why? The why behind the what we do it. And yes, my messaging is a lot around that, a lot around the power of people, a lot around the quality focus that you need to have when it comes to recruitment and training, rather than a quantity focus. Think long term as well, because sometimes customer service takes time to to be improved. Thank you. Changing the culture takes time. In average, you don't always like out of a training course, you may remember 40 percent of what is being given to you on the first course, which is already a good ratio. So yeah, I think it's really important to put that in your messaging. And you will only be better in putting it out there that if you believe in it, right? As simple as that. So I think that Sometimes with marketing, and you know it 10 times better than I do we sometimes do things that other people are doing. We may say something because we saw someone else saying it, and we think we agree with it. It's fine, but I think it still needs to include the things that you do believe in, that you do believe will make a difference, and that's the main reason why you're doing what you're doing. You need to put that in your messaging on a regular basis, because that's how you'll get. The clients that will appreciate and will take full benefit of what you're providing. It's not only again about attracting in terms of quantity, but attracting those clients in terms of quality. The more you put your value out there, the more you'll get clients with similar values.

Paul: 21:06

It's funny because I speak to a lot of people who, I work in fairly saturated markets who tell me that they really struggle to differentiate themselves from their competitors. And my response is always a stock response is the differentiator is you and your beliefs and your values and your vision. And a lot of people are scared to put out there because they're maybe too, it feels like they're bragging or just not being humble enough. And so they try and make it all about the brand and it just starts to go downhill from there. So I love what you've said there around, how you can differentiate yourself just by being true to your own personal beliefs and mission in life. And helping that resonate through the business. If I'm a small business owner, I say small, maybe 10 employees looking to make my next hire. How can I be smart about who I hire next? How can I make sure that the talent I attract is going to be the right hire for me long term?

Pierre: 22:00

I think it's taking time to recruit the right person because, I will give you an example of my own career before I started my my business. I was a head of events, the Landmark Hotel running very large events September to December was very very busy. And sometimes people decide to leave not at a time when it matches your activity and your forecast. They leave because they have to leave, because they have another opportunity etc. Now, obviously, what is the first focus you may have at that moment is, I need to find someone quickly because I have those big events coming next week, next month. And I always, probably that's a lot of the mindset I have today when it comes to recruitment. I was always saying one thing to myself. I'd rather take a month to find someone that is the right fit than take a week to find someone that seems good but is not the perfect fit. Because there's one thing to keep in mind as well, you're not doing a favor to that person. Because that person could have been recruited by a company that will really value his or her mindset, attitude, and values more than that company. So I think it's really important to not think short term, to not think filling the gap. And even to find alternative solutions in the meantime, accept that you may struggle, but it's better to struggle a bit and then have the right person than not struggle a bit and then have the wrong person for the rest of the yeah, the rest of the time. And obviously you're not doing a favor to that person neither. Cause, I wouldn't say there is no bad employees but I would say there is no, not as many bad employees as we think. There is also bad hire bad management and poor train poor training and resources and or lack of training and resources provided on a regular basis. Sometimes we may take shortcuts as business owners, as managers, just labeling our employees as bad or. Rather than thinking the why, again, behind the what. Why is that person like this? What did I not do wrong? What did I not do well for the employees to be like this? Which, by the way, you do exactly the same with your customers when it comes to expectations management. If a customer is wrong, you ask yourself, What did I do wrong for the clients to be wrong? What did I not say right from the start? It's almost the same mindset, but it needs to be a proactive mindset. Yeah, I would say, Take the time to find the right person, really understand what you're looking for as well because sometimes you, for example, my clients, when they come to me for recruitment I have specific questions that They've never been asked before, probably, but that helps me to really understand what they are looking for. It's just not a job description that you put out there and you see who matches the best with it. It's also really understanding who you are looking for in terms of those three focuses, which is mindset, attitude, and values. Not only in terms of skills.

Paul: 25:00

Just before we wrap up then, you mentioned a couple of questions there that, that you might ask your clients to get underneath the skin of that a bit more. Would you mind sharing one or two of those with us without giving the game away too much?

Pierre: 25:09

I have said questions, but sometimes I come up with the questions based on what they are looking for but it's a lot of questions in terms of what are the key attitudes you are looking for? Is it for example, let's say a first entry wall as simple as a first entry wall. What are the first, the key attitudes you are looking for? And they can pick between active listening. So first entry roles that dealing a lot with customers. Is it active listening? Is it empathy? Is it proactiveness? Is it handling compliance handling? Is it managing your own emotions? Is it confidence? Like attitude, because at the end of the day, I almost see attitude and skills as the same in customer service, because whatever skills you have in customer service, you still display those skills through your attitude.

Paul: 25:52

Yep.

Pierre: 25:53

Any skills to handle complaints is how you say it and what you do. And it's a lot about the how, not the what. The what, they know it, I don't know it. I ask a lot of questions around the how. Also, I last question, I ask questions about things that they would like to change based on the previous position that they have. Cause, again, I think we have, again, that tendency to always Copy paste the whole job description my, when I was head of events I was sometimes being pulled off by my line manager on how long I would spend to review the job descriptions before putting the position out there. But for me, it was important. And sometimes I review job descriptions that haven't been touched for 10 years. So sometimes my questions, All around that is around getting information that are not on the job description, if that makes sense. It can be about what are the key values that you're looking in in those people? What, how would you like them to manage your team when it comes to getting them to deliver great customer service? Almost the questions I will ask to my attendees during my course, because, yeah that's really trying to tell yourself. What questions can I ask that they probably didn't ask themselves to really find that gem that they are looking for?

Paul: 27:05

Amazing. I love it. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with us today, Piera, and your journey, which is just fascinating for somebody who was born and raised in the UK, and I've never really considered working in another country. I think it's amazing that somebody can come not only to another country and do what you're doing, but to do that with a language barrier as well, and still be rocking and rolling. Hats off. I wish I could speak any other language as well as you speak English. I'm always amazed by folks from other countries and I think it's a, I digress a little bit, but I think it's a big feeling that we have here in the UK that we're not more proactive with our language for our children.

Pierre: 27:41

Thank you

Paul: 27:41

an amazing guest. If

Pierre: 27:43

your very kind words. That's very kind of you. Yeah, it was a real, it was a real pleasure. We enjoyed it. And yeah, don't worry. I still see a lot of British people speaking French. I'm even shocked myself, almost once a week. So you guys are not doing that bad at all.

Paul: 27:59

if it's any consolation, my my son's been starting to we start going to the Sunderland games so I'm a, for my sins, I'm a Sunderland fan. And my seven year old, we've been learning, I've been teaching him Spanish for about a year and a half, two years now. But we also, we started mixing in French about six months back. And so he didn't speak a lot of French, he speaks a lot

Pierre: 28:18

Now we're talking.

Paul: 28:19

he does French. I'm determined he's not going to have the same challenges with language that I had by learning too late. And we went to see the players after the football game and our manager's French, Regis Le Bris. And he came down and my son said merci beaucoup to him. Honestly, the whole six months, all of the fights that we've had over whether to do lessons or not, was instantly worth it by the smile on Regis's face when a seven year old, out of the blue, just said thank you in his home language. It just, I like, honestly, it blew me away. I was like, now do you understand why I've batted you so hard? Did you see the smile on his face? He's yeah, dad. Oh, this is amazing. And so now he's doubled down on everything. It's brilliant.

Pierre: 29:01

Thanks to you.

Paul: 29:02

just, it is. And I just wish more people would take that, they would take that opportunity. But anyway, I digress. Thank you very much for your time today, Pierre. It's been lovely sharing the time with you. And thank you very much for coming along at home, watching the story or listening along. Let me know if you've got any questions. Pierre, how can people contact you if they want to reach out and chat more?

Pierre: 29:22

again so much for having me today. Really enjoyed our conversation. Directly on my website, on the enquiry form or on my LinkedIn, you can just reach out to me directly on the link to my website or just reach out to me on any of the links on the featured sections of my LinkedIn profile. So yeah, thank you again.

Paul: 29:41

Awesome. I'll make sure they're in the show notes. If anybody is looking to contact Pierre, it should be down there somewhere. Brilliant. Thank you. Bye bye.

Pierre: 29:48

Bye. Thanks.