Paul: 0:29

Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers. This week I'm joined by the fantastic Nikki Mears. Nikki, welcome to the show.

Nikki: 0:38

Hi.

Paul: 0:39

If you don't know Nikki, she's the co founder and director of Naturally Talented Me CIC. Leveraging over 25 years of experience in learning, skills development, and IT roles at companies like Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, and EDS. She specialises in designing people development programmes and building platforms that bridge the gap between education and employment. Through Naturally Talented Me, Nikki is committed to showcasing talent and potential for all, helping individuals access new career opportunities, regardless of background or status. www. microsoft. com Nikki, I have to say, I'm super passionate about all of that. I love what it is that you're trying to achieve with that. As somebody who's transitioned out of a role that was very pigeon holed and very career oriented. Let's call it. And I'm now doing something completely different with my time. I'm proof that it can happen. You can transition your career and your education, your background, your economic status. None of that should matter a fig if you've got the talent to do it. So I just wanted to get that out front, but thank you very much for agreeing to be on the show.

Nikki: 1:49

Lovely to be here. Thank you.

Paul: 1:51

Can I just say how, on earth did you end up working at Microsoft and HP in the first place? Because they're two businesses that everybody kind of clamors to be part of, and I'm sure quite a few people clamor to be back out of again once they get there as well. But how do you manage to bag both of them?

Nikki: 2:05

Interestingly my career has always been in sales. So I started off in admin and then through some really great recruitment lady She said no, you'll be great at sales So I progressed I went through the whole series of sales from photocopiers the fax machines to you name it I probably sold it including radio advertising as well actually and then I got into technical training and I Because I was in sales and technical training, I got really interested in that whole skills development piece. And the company I worked for sold Microsoft Training. And literally, it was a transition of selling for an outsource company And then getting into projects and doing more work, talking about skills development into big companies. And that's how I went into Microsoft initially. And then I got caught up in a program of, and you won't remember this, the NT4 refresh program. Wow, that was a great time of year. I've just noticed that version 10 is now going out as well. So that's really interesting. Yeah, and it's, it was a great opportunity to do this whole re skilling program because basically it was literally like piece of paper, right? We're now going to cut it all up and you can't use it anymore. So I got involved in that project, which took me into EDS. And I developed a skills development portal for EDS and I ran a million pound budget for all of their EMEA IT guys. So it was a real diverse mix of people, but it was all about training for the right reasons. And then EDS got bought by HP as a service arm. So that's how I ended up with HP. And I went to HP and went. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm a bit tired of it now. And it just wasn't working for me anymore. They were too set in their ways. And a lot of these big companies just are not open to new ideas. They're so prescriptive in processes and running things in particular ways. So I just went, I'll take redundancy. And I went out on my own. So transitioned into different, Opportunities since then and hence Naturally Sanited Me came about from a chance meeting. So yeah, that's where I've come from.

Paul: 4:08

Brilliant. And I'm, I have to say I'm flattered that you don't think I'd remember NT4, but I was that nerdy kid that, that loved to get hold of the server kit and install the server kit on my own PC at home even though I really didn't need it. And I did own all 12 disks of Windows 3. 1 back in the day on a, on an x86, yes. No, I don't. No, I don't. They'd probably be worth quite a bit if I did, although I'm not quite sure they were genuine discs. So I'm not sure how much they'd be worth, but Yeah, even then there was ways and means. Oh dear. Yeah, I had to choose between having a computer game on my computer or Windows for my homework for school. I regularly had to delete and uninstall and reinstall it depending on what I was doing. Painful. Naturally talented me then. You talk about a chance encounter. Tell me all about that. How did that happen?

Nikki: 4:56

I got involved with my kids school actually, so I became a parent governor, which was quite an eye opener. If you've ever got involved within education, it is quite eye opening, their challenges. So I became a parent governor because of my experience in technology. I helped them with their kind of digital access and that kind of thing. But also, we were talking about careers, obviously, goes in line with skills development. And I did an employer outreach event for the school themselves and invited loads of people from LinkedIn and that kind of thing. And this one particular guy, who's my co founder, Nick Boothroyd I bumped into him and he said, Oh, no, thanks for the invite. Kind of I knew you, but I didn't really know you. And he works for the Rank Group. Now, Rank Group are, I don't know if you know the whole ethos behind Rank Group, but they are so diverse in everything that they do. And he introduced me to a really lovely girl that had come along with him just to find out about the session. And and she said, I said, Oh, what do you do? She said, Oh, I'm an analyst. And I went, Oh, okay. That's really interesting. So she said, yeah, but I was a crew PA up until about six months ago. And I said, how did you go from being a croupier to an analyst? And it was just this whole, hang on a minute, there's got to be something behind this as to why you can transition. And had some learned, lived experiences of my own. My son found out he was dyslexic when he was 17. And that kind of made me think about hang on a minute, so many people are pigeonholed as you've already mentioned into particular jobs and, sometimes that just becomes the norm. You carry on with your career a little bit like I did, for a period of time. And then you suddenly have this epiphany moment where you go, why am I doing this? I could be doing something different. Now, that doesn't happen to a very large proportion of individuals because, there's They don't have access to that understanding. It's very stereotypical. Oh, you're this type of person. So this is the only job you're going to be able to do. Or, oh, you're not academic. Ooh, actually, these are the only things you're going to be, capable of doing. And it's all complete rubbish, actually, what we all have, and that, that foundation is talent. And I said to Nick, who's my co founder now, I said, wouldn't it be great if we went back to the old fashioned CV? Hey! Which, you probably don't remember, I'm saying this, because when I was at school, at the top it said, what's your hobbies and interests? Now the reason it was always at the top was because that defined your passions, your drivers, those things that got you out of bed on a rainy Saturday morning to go and do football or rugby or whatever that might be. And fundamentally, they are the things that drive you as a person. But they're your natural talents and it was an epiphany moment with Nick when we were standing there talking about all of this and I said, gosh, wouldn't it be great if we could create a tool that enabled you to put in your hobbies and your interests and that it told you what your talents were? And he went, yeah, I think we've got something there. And that's literally how it's all started and how it's all come about. So it is about focusing on valuing the person. And helping that person think differently about themselves as well. So yeah, that's how it all came about

Paul: 8:07

I love that idea I love that idea. I was guilty of it myself and I know loads of people who are trapped in retail rules. And retail is one of those industries that I would happily advise young kids to get involved in as if they don't, especially if they don't know what they want to do. Cause there's such a variety of roles and skills that you learn in that environment. And I'm a big advocate that anybody who's done any form of retail role for a business, Period of time and done well at it. Not just gotten by, but done well at it. If you can do well in retail, you can apply that skill set to pretty much any job. And I've, I've spoke with quite a lot of people. And the vast majority of people fall along the wayside because they want to get out because they're annoyed with their current circumstances and they know they've got more to give but they just can't see themselves doing anything else. And they don't quite believe anyone who is willing to tell them they can do it because it's a fairy story. And, I remember applying for roles when I was there and I was a store manager at the time and I was applying for things that I thought were interesting. I knew what I could do, cause I could apply myself, but I didn't necessarily have experience in one of them was like a show home sales manager, right? I was like, I can do that with my eyes shut. I can sell homes till the cows come home because I'm good with people. I can, I can talk to people. I can brilliant, not a single person ever replied to me because I've no doubt they saw my CV and went, he's a store manager for retail. No good here. What's he applying for us for? And I must have applied for 30 or 40 similar jobs. And I realise now that I was applying because it was what aligned with my inner why I want to do what I want to do. Not a lot of people understand their why, right Nikki?

Nikki: 10:25

hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a fundamental part of self thinking, it's, I think, I think so many people get lost in, the way things work around them, that they do lose their kind of identity. And it's, I think, Some of the things that we need to start going back to is what is it that makes you who you are? It doesn't matter what the picture is, what is it that drives you as an individual? That inner drive and passion is why you can do these things. You're 100 percent right with retail. When I was a kid, I worked in Woolworths. Lovely Woolworths, I wish that was coming back. On the record bar, believe it or not. And I went, because of How I was driven myself. I went from working there, I went into the office and was doing all the money, all the calculations. I then had an administration job where I was doing, loads of, and it just if, you can, if you're given that ability to be seen as, I think you could do this. How many companies lose staff? Because they just pigeonhole them and they don't see that actually, the guy that sits next to you every single day could be a much better manager than the manager that you've got at the moment. It's just that he's never given the opportunity to do it. Or, you could have a whole raft of talent within your business, but you don't know they're there. Because you don't talent profile them, you just have them as, this is a CV, these are the word matches, these are the experience that you've got, and this is what dictates who you do, what you do. And it's criminal because a lot of people leave companies and they turn out to be fantastic employees somewhere else. It's a ridiculous cycle that we're caught in and a part of the core of this problem is the way the recruitment system works in that it's word search based. And you cannot find new talent by just going down that paper version because it doesn't explain that person in any shape or form. And actually, most of them don't. are complete rubbish, they're written by somebody else so even though you think you've got the right person it doesn't mean that what's on paper is exactly who they are

Paul: 12:35

They've employed a good CV writer or

Nikki: 12:37

yeah

Paul: 12:37

exactly. And how sad that's the situation that things have to be that way to, to just get to an interview point. I've long said that I think the recruitment business in this country and many other countries is broken. And you know what, whilst AI could be a great tool for good in that industry, I know it's not going to be a good tool in that industry. And it's going to largely Frustrate and make things worse than what they are. Quick questions then I'm imagining, I can see a very Unique opportunity for many businesses who want to, who already know that they want to attract people who their competition can't at a price, a wage point that they probably can't as well. Cause you're not paying for the experience. You're paying for somebody who's inexperienced, going to transition careers. You're going to get them a better salary to start with at least. You're going to be able to train them your way, you're going to get people who think differently, bring lots of different experiences with them. I can absolutely see the attraction from the employer side of things. How do you attract the employees? Because, for a lot of them, they're not even going to be looking at what you do as being relevant to them, right? There will be some that recognise it, like I did, but I bet there's 80 or 90 percent who just don't even understand that's possible, right?

Nikki: 13:53

it's. A big problem when we launched during COVID, one of the things that we knew was going to happen, there'd be a lot more people furthest from the job market. And a large majority of those people were going to have to reinvent themselves to find work. And I think that there's a couple of things in that question that I'm trying to think of the best way of putting it, but I think the problem we have is everybody's blinkered. We run through society based on processes and the way things work. And because of that, you're not open to new ideas. So the reason when we launched during COVID was we focused on the user. Because we thought, let's give other, let's give people hope, let's give them the opportunity to develop themselves, to think differently about themselves, because that, we hope, that's going to change their styles. And a lot of the groups that we deal with, SEND groups and schools and a whole range of different groups, have seen that value because they create their profile and they suddenly go, wow, look at me on a piece of paper, this is fantastic, all the pictures and the evidence. And it becomes It's something exciting for them. So the individuals who go through the process and build their profile, they love it. They absolutely love it once they get it. Our biggest problem was, do we then go to employers? Now the problem with employers is they don't get it at the moment. They go on about, we want to attract, this whole new skill set of people. We want more talent, we want talented people. And it's how are you going to find that? The reality of it is, you can't. I think for us, our biggest challenge at the moment through what we do through marketing and that kind of thing is that getting that message out is really hard because it's actually trying to change the system. And that for us is the biggest challenge that we've got is because it's changing the system, but it's also changing people's mindset. And that is always a big challenge because there's always in the back of people's minds. Oh yeah, what's in it for you? Or, what does that mean to me? And am I really going to find something, hooray, hurrah type moment? Is that going to happen? And, I think that's why we've. We have had to slowly tread out into the market because we are actually trying to make a big change. And most areas or marketplaces or whatever aren't really open to that yet. So for employees, it would be An unbelievably great tool for them as individuals within an organisation, because it will suddenly get them looking at others and, you'd have project teams that actually work together because you pick the right talent mix for a project and, but it's just at the top level where the blockers are and a lot of that is because of the way the process works, they can't change it. So it is a challenge but we will continue to chip away.

Paul: 16:46

It's interesting that you said that though, because there, there is, I know I was getting there myself as you were talking. I was like, I wonder if there's an internal use case for that as well. Rather than you having to bring in talent from outside, what if you've got people who are languishing in a department that they thoroughly hit working in? Cause it's not really ticking their box, but actually pick them up from there and put them over here and they become a really engaged employee who wants to be there. And I can see that being a challenge for a lot of businesses. How does that help businesses with their own marketing then? So if they're able to then say that we've got a diverse workforce and we truly recognize talent at a core level, how does that, is that something that can then use to attract bigger clients themselves or differentiate themselves?

Nikki: 17:34

I think so. I think it's a massive opportunity for them. And, think of it in two different ways. Not only does it give them The kudos of their commitment because a lot of them talk about, oh, we've got this great diversity agenda and we're doing all these really great things, but a lot of it's talk. It's not really action. So the big, the companies that are really doing it properly, it's a big investment. It is a big investment. And it's not because you have to make such big changes with your business to be able to have that diverse workforce. It's just that you've got to be, you've got to be adjusting. You've got to be flexible and you've also got to be committed. Because if you're not committed, you'll have one department that it works brilliantly and another that it doesn't. Actually what we need to drive is this mindset with organisations that actually having a real diversity agenda. actually means that you are committed. And if you're committed, that means you're going to have a massive opportunity of such a great range of employees. You'll have better ideas. You'll have teams that will work differently. You'll have greater opportunities to attract new clients. And put on top of that, one of the biggest things that you can do for that business is save you the money. Because if you reduce your recruitment budget, By a third at least, that could be ploughed into a massive diversity agenda. So actually there's huge tangible benefits, not just from a diversity perspective, but from a, a savings perspective within the company, they can reapply funds in different ways, have better resources. So again It's just not about just the branding. It's also about the value that it's going to bring their organization and the cost savings. If you imagine, if you know that within your local region, you've got a talent pool that you can pick from whenever you need it, why would you do any recruitment? You don't need to. And that's probably some of the reason why we struggle a little bit, because I think people are starting to see that if that is the case, the recruitment companies might go out of business.

Paul: 19:38

So how are you guys marketing then? Because that's a unique kind of challenge that you've got there and I've no doubt that it's a work in progress at all times, as a lot of businesses are, right? Let's be honest. So what sort of things have you tried with the marketing that just maybe didn't really resonate, didn't hit the button and that you've put to bed?

Nikki: 19:57

Yeah we've invested in generic marketing campaigns to particular sectors. So for instance, we've done quite a bit of work within education, but our biggest problem is we're up against big names who have already got lots of products. So again, we're trying to compete in a world that's already very complex. So we're having to think about. Going back to real basics for our marketing now, and actually some of the programs we're going to be launching within the new year are focused on individuals. So originally it was, the product, the platforms themselves were going to be for schools to use or intervention groups to use or, community groups to use, young offender groups, use our platform, it'd be great. But because we've got these barriers and these blockers, we're now saying actually, maybe we just go to the user. For this fixed fee, this is what you're gonna get, and it's the value it's gonna bring to you. Because I think there's an awful lot of people, we've certainly had quite a number of send parents, who have come to us and said, can we use your platform for our child? Because They're just not getting enough support from the school and that's not the school's fault. It's like a resource and funding, but we need something to help them think about their next steps. We need to help them feel better about themselves and the opportunity. So we think that's probably the market that we're going to end up heading into is that sort of end user market, which we hadn't anticipated. But again, things change and you have to adapt and grow as you develop as an organisation. So yeah, I think that's going to be our next focus, is using social media to get to the user.

Paul: 21:38

I think you guys have a unique opportunity, in that almost everything you do, generates a beautiful story, right? The case studies speak for themselves in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and it's wholesome. And I love purpose driven businesses. I love to talk to purpose driven business owners because you're not there to make money. Yes. Making money is a means to an end and it helps you do more good. It's not the end goal. The end goal is to change the way we recruit, change people's lives, change how people look at things from education. And I've said for a long time that I I've always been frustrated with how careers and career education is done within the school environment because we almost I remember being told I'd be a zookeeper. I'm like, guys I'm 13. I don't want to be a zookeeper. Like what a ridiculous job to suggest for someone like, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a zookeeper is a ridiculous job. It's an amazing job, but it's not at 13 when I'm into computers and technology and I, it's not something that's gonna resonate with me. And it's literally, or it was probably just one of those old BBC microcomputers that just looked at a lot of variables and spat something out great, brilliant. And I do think that young people need Much more qualified support to understand what it is that drives them. I didn't know until I was mid thirties what I wanted to do with my life, right? I didn't have a plan, and I'm ADHD when you talk send I didn't know that. Never knew that until two years ago, and I remember people telling me in my career development, I'd be, 15 years in my career. What do you, think about what do you want to be in 10 years time, Paul? I have no idea! I have no idea. All I know is, what I'm doing is boring, and I want to do something exciting. And, let's find something more exciting than what I'm doing, right? And I knew I wanted to work with people, which in retail is pretty much anything. I'm like, give me a job. I can turn my mind to it. I can turn my hand to it. I'll be good at it. But it frustrated everyone because I couldn't tell them what my career path needed to be. Maybe if we took the time to understand what my why was, work through that, and then find more of that stuff that I was, that attracted me. We could have find rules that apply to that because the same. And I think we need to apply that process to kids, right? Help them find what drives them early, so that they can at least be thinking towards the right sort of rules. Not pick a career and work towards it, pick something you want to do as part of your career, and look to do more of that thing. And I, I think that's a different frame, a different viewpoint that would help a lot of kids.

Nikki: 24:08

And primary school ladies, they're all open, aren't they? They're all open to something new, they're learning. What a perfect time to get them thinking differently about themselves, it's fabulous, I think, to start that early, but we will get there one day, hopefully. I really hope that you do. I really hope that you do. It's something that, that's, I have to get myself off my soapbox when I start on education, cause I'm super passionate about it I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna start. I can feel myself going, it's a whole other podcast series, Nikki, it's a whole other podcast series, not even just one episode and I will just lose it if I start. And there, yeah, there are some talented, amazing teachers out there who are stifled by the system. And hats off to them for continuing to do it for the kids sake. Yeah.

Paul: 24:52

Back to marketing then. What's one thing that you see other businesses doing in, in terms of marketing that you just wish everybody would just lay off? What grinds your gears, Nikki?

Nikki: 25:02

For me I find. Let me give you a quick scenario. So I watch telly from time to time and I see adverts on the telly that are marketing companies and I'm thinking, that does not inspire me to buy your products cause it's just annoying. So from a marketing perspective, and unfortunately my problem is cause I wear a sales hat cause I've, my background is sales. Which is completely different from marketing. So everything that I try and do from a marketing perspective is about promoting and selling. It's not about the core of, why does somebody want to buy your products and all those kind of it's, so for me, the thing I hate about marketing is when it tries to be too clever and sometimes it's just like, why can't, like the old adverts used to be, I buy this soap powder because it cleans my clothes properly. Great. But now you get this whole sort of thing that has you've got a donkey in an advert, what's that got to do with cleaning your teeth? I'm sorry. So for me, I'm, where we've come to, we've tried to do clever marketing. And it's not worked for us because it just doesn't get the message across. And our problem is, cause we are very unique in what we're offering, we have to sell a message. It's about getting people to think differently when you're talking to them through marketing. And that's been a real challenge for us. I've got to be honest. We're now starting to take a step back and doing more storytelling, which I think is the only way that we're going to be successful with marketing. But I've, to be honest, my biggest bugbear of marketing is when they, Create something ridiculous to try and sell a product and it's just, for me, it's just, what is the relevance of that,

Paul: 26:40

I think it can work for Large brands to an extent. I find that is very limited what marketing works on me at all. And I think that's just cause I see through things so quickly. I'm like, this is market and this is sales. I can read the first line of a message in my inbox. I'm like, you're after a sale, you're after this. And I used to be that person, right? Like I used to have to write those messages as well. I get it. I totally get it. But yeah can see the alignment there, but for small businesses, do you know what? I think the differentiator is the ability to tell the stories. It is the ability to share individual use cases and showcase the people behind the brand. And you're super, it's clear, you're super passionate about what you're trying to achieve. And it's not a, there's no ulterior motive here. There's no badness hidden behind what you're trying to do. It is wholesome. So why, why not lean into that and do more of that? On the flip side then what's one market and tactic that you just, you wish more businesses would lean into? What's one thing that you see, maybe it's something new that people are looking at now and maybe on the fence about?

Nikki: 27:41

I think my, my issue is around social media. So I like to see, and I know it sounds a little bit daft, but I'd actually like to go back to sending a letter, or actually something that goes in the, I know it sounds really bizarre and I've had debate, yeah? debates with my co partner and I've said, wouldn't it be great if you actually sent somebody a a postcard Or, a nice letter that, was just on nice paper and that, and he's really? This is, this is the new century. And I'm like yeah, but my inbox, I don't know about yours, but I get them every day and it's the same old thing. And you're just like, I'm tired. I just put them in blocks now. I feel sorry for these people, but they're just all blocks. And actually if I had really nice letter that come through, I'd probably read it. All joking aside, because I think actually. That might be something important, so I'm gonna, oh yeah, a nice little postcard, or whatever. Actually, I think, and I don't know if you agree with it, but I think it might be something that would be worth going back to. Because, again, it might actually get to the person.

Paul: 28:46

You're right, I've got a business partner, Phil, who runs a company called Marketing managed. And this is something he's a huge advocate for. He's used it so many times over the past. And if anything, it's become more effective now than ever before because nobody else is doing it anymore. And it's a lesson that I took into my own business. I don't do the same thing, but I've been inspired by the sorts of things that he said, and he's Oh, I'll send you a Freddo in the post. Freddo costs, what, 50 pence to send, but actually now I've got a positive emotion aligned with opening this letter and, oh, and, there's companies out there, they'll even fake handwrite the letter for you, so you don't even have to do too much yourself, you can still do it in bulk you've got computers that'll handwrite the letters for you and put mistakes in and all sorts of things But, If everyone took the time to understand how they could be a little bit different without being ridiculous horses in their adverts, right? You don't need to put big floppy clown shoes on to be different. You just need to be different. And I send out, now and again, I'll send out a barrage of automated messages to people, not because I want to annoy them, but because I just want to put my hand up above the parapet and say, hello, I'm here. Here's who I am, here's who I help, let me know if you're interested in a conversation. And, I'll probably get out of every hundred, I might get one person who tells me to I can't say it on podcast, I definitely can't say that on podcast, I would get cancelled. Which is fine I understand I get it. But for every one of those, I get another three that go, do you know what? That is the best automated message I've ever received. And it made me feel so happy to read it because you're not trying to be automated. You're not trying to be clever. You're just being you and you could tell you'd handwritten it. Although you're sending it out in bulk, and I appreciate that. And, there's a lesson for everybody to pick from that. You're absolutely right little Lego kits. You can get little, they're called MOCs, right? Like you can buy a little customised Lego kit that does something to do with whatever industry you're in. And by the time people put it together, it might only be 15 pieces, they put it together and it's a little something that sits on their desk. And every time they look at their desk, they've got a little logo in the middle of that's got your logo on. How nice. That's brilliant. Top of mind. Even if it's not for them, it'll recommend you to someone else. I got this lovely piece of Lego the other day. You want to sign up to their newsletter. You want to get yourself one. It's just a nice way of doing business. Nikki, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation today. If anybody listening along at home wants to learn a bit more, and I know a lot of my audience align with me around education and stuff, so hopefully they will. How can they reach you? How can they find out more about Naturally Talented Me? And what do they do next? We've obviously our website, so www. naturallytalentedme. com. And they can always give me an email. Nikkiatnaturallytalentedme. com. Or, just reach out on LinkedIn or Facebook because we're on there regularly. But yeah, it's, Hopefully people will start seeing more of us and fingers crossed we'll start getting some real traction within the employer market, which would be absolutely great to just have, even if it's one employer on board, just to say, actually there is a new way of doing things. So yeah, reach out in whatever guides you want or send me a letter if you want, I don't mind. I love it. Thank you very much for your time, Nikki. You've been a fantastic guest. Lovely, great conversation. Thank you. It's just like being in the coffee shop, right? Yeah. but remote. And if you're listening along at home, thank you very much for coming along, joining the show, whether you're listening to us in the car as you're driving about, whether you're watching us in between emails, pretending that you're working, I don't know whatever floats your boat, or if you've had enough of your family and you've disappeared upstairs and you're listening to us for 10 minutes just cause, I'm not sure it's any better to be fair, thank you very much for coming along and subscribing to us. If you or someone you know wants to be a guest on the show, Drop me a line, let me know, we'd love to consider you for the show and we will see you next week.