Paul: 0:29

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers. And this week I'm joined by the fantastic George Holliday, who's the co founder of Hear Me Out, a creative sound agency that specializes in sonic branding to elevate brands and increase their recall. I love that George. We've spoken to quite a few people who are brand and Like more, more typical brand strategy people, we've got, we've had some copywriters on the show. We've got LinkedIn profile creators. You're the very first sonic branding marketer that we've had. And I love it because it's so important to me as well. Great to have you on the show, mate.

George: 1:04

Thanks so much for having me. And yeah, nice to represent the space cause there's only a handful of people in the whole country, agencies that are actually doing this. It's been a lot of fun for us because of the fact it's so

Paul: 1:15

can imagine it

George: 1:15

the moment. i can imagine

Paul: 1:16

it is with the advent of video becoming much more prolific for most people and media being much more part of that Broadband widths increasing, mobile broadband speeds increasing at a rate of knots. I can imagine that there's going to be a huge demand for that. so to give a little bit more background for those listening along at home or viewing along at home you've got a pretty unique background, right? Music producer and songwriter George has also spent eight years touring alongside artists and musicians. In the likes of Lionel Richie and J. P. Cooper, before launching his own music production company, Made On The Road, in a bus turned studio. I love that. Now, working with Hear Me Out, George and his team are using sound sound to create memorable brand identities for clients ranging from household names to emerging businesses. I have to like, there's just so much, so many questions that float through my head right now.

George: 2:10

Where do we

Paul: 2:10

I can't cope.

George: 2:11

Where do we start?

Paul: 2:12

To give you a bit of my background, like it's not marketing. It's not sales. I come from a retail background. I know there's elements of that in your own background as well. But in my house, in our house, we have Amazon devices everywhere. Not because I like, Having smart assistants on hand all the time. It can be useful more often than not. It's a frustration. But because we're big fans of not even having the TV on half the time, we just love having music on, listening to things and that audio background to our lives. And. Same for our kids, like my kids have learned that

George: 2:43

first I love that. before

Paul: 2:44

they've even learned to switch on the TV is how to use an Amazon. Fantastic to have you on the show. First off, I have to ask, cause I know everybody at home is going to want to know. A couple of weeks back, we had a guy called Adrian Fuller who used to be a movie producer and director and he'd worked with the likes of Madonna and Lady Gaga and things like that. So it's, interesting how many people end up in the marketing space once they realize that world. Isn't all quite what it's cracked up to be. I guess a lot of people find that. First, if you could just share some of your early experiences leading up to how you ended up starting Hear Me Out.

George: 3:16

Yeah, so as you've touched on, I started as a performer musician. I started playing piano when I was seven and I literally have never had another job other than playing piano. Even now, a large part of my job is just playing piano during the day. So I'm very grateful for that. And I spent, my ast my astronaut story as I always say when I was a kid, what do you want to be when you're older? I always looked at the big stages. I always looked at, being in bands and having that sort of stardom, let's say. And it was in my early teens I realized, actually it's not all glam, you hear the horror stories of what it's like being in the, in showbiz. But It just meant so much to me, the little moments I had on my piano, I wanted to share with the world in some way, shape or form. Didn't know how that was going to be. Went to university, studied music, studied world music to film actually. So it was Egyptian and Turkish music I specialized in. Music to film was always something I loved. Always have very fond memories of, turning on ET or Jurassic Park, those classic soundtracks. And they transported me somewhere, I could, yeah, I could just be anywhere when I turned that, those films on and I loved the magic of that. So film was my first kind of love performing was became more of a reachable job, let's say, when I was at university, joined bands, played weddings. Did all of that scene. When I was 15, actually, I started playing piano at a Marina, a guy who was my hairdresser at the time, had a bar down there and gave me an opportunity to play every other Sunday, 50 pound cash in hand, I felt like the richest man in the village, 50 pound when you're 15 for going to playing some songs, being fed and having a drink in hand. That was great. And I just, from that moment, just realized piano was always going to be the way to create a job for myself, and. As I got each job, the ambition grew each time and it got me to the point where I was playing for an artist called AJ Brown and supported Lionel Richie. That was the final gig I actually did before I moved into the bus, which I'll talk about in a minute. And. Had the chance to rub shoulders with some great artists and be in some amazing rooms with some amazing artists and hear all these stories. Unfortunately, the music industry is such a brutal world. If you really want to be in front of the camera or in front of the lights, it's such a hard industry to have the backbone for and just to stay in that industry for so long. I Wanted to get out of the touring world, but I really loved the traveling side. So I built a music studio in a bus and that was my way of continuing to travel. But as a piano player, I couldn't put a guitar on my back. I couldn't just put a microphone in my bag and sit on a beach and write songs. So I had to come up with an idea that. Allowed me to take my piano with me. Now, ironically, now in my suitcase, I have a fold up piano from an amazing company called Piano de Voyage. Technology's moved on since I moved into the bus, but that was my chapter, that was the next step for me. And I lived in that bus for four years. Traveled around. Unfortunately, COVID put a stop to it. But it was an amazing experience. And rather than getting people to travel to me in London or Leeds, where I was living at the time to record music, actually, I said, I just got people on the phone and said, I'm in Croatia. Do you want to fly out here? I'll pay for your ticket as part of the production fee. At the time it was only 60 pounds of return flights. It was do you get a train down to city of London? Exactly. Yeah. Do you want to, train down to London at 120 quid a ticket return, or do you want me to fly you out to Croatia and we record on a beach, which I did. Amazing stories, amazing music was made and it pushed the boundaries of, when you're making music in a bus, you are pushed out of conventional. Situations, motorbike flies past. How do you edit that in post production? All these scenarios you only get when you put yourself in an unusual situation, right? And I've genuinely felt like the music was better for it. So that was the journey up until COVID times. What I realized was I was actually branding artists. So artists were coming to me and saying, I'm trying to figure out what my sound is. And that's exactly what I do now for brands. And I had that moment of, That moment of realization of essentially what I was doing was branding, but for musicians. And my love of business, I grew up in a business environment. My parents have run a business for coming up to 30 years, I think now. So I've grown up in that environment. their factories at home, their staff are at home, on the same ground, should I say, it's not in the house, but so I've always grown up around it and, those two worlds finally collided there in kitchen, bespoke kitchen making, and sadly I was never that good at drawing, but I was always good with music. So I made that crossover and music and brands and businesses is now the world. And I was very fortunate when I was doing the artists. Production world. When I was in that world, because I made a really good friend called Luke Mosley. We actually met on TikTok. So that shows a sign of the times. And we had the same mentor. We were basically working in parallel, working with artists, calling each other up each week. Is this working for you? Is that working for you? And realized we were doing the same thing with TV advertising. So why don't we just join forces and make an agency and rather than see ourselves as competitors, which we didn't, people generally do see somebody doing the same thing as you as a competitor. We said, let's just join forces. I think we'll be stronger for it. And we've never looked back and HearMeOut was born off the back of that. So that's the last 15 years of my life in a nutshell.

Paul: 8:39

What a powerful what an emotive story for a lot of people. And that, that moment of kind of realization that what you were already doing applied to a much wider world. I think, that's, a lot of business owners go through that moment. I would like to think that they do when they get to, there's a lot of businesses start off doing one thing and then realize, That it's not working. It's not working because you haven't really found the real power of it yet. You either need to niche it down and make it smaller so it talks to one particular group of people, or make it bigger because you haven't realized the capability or potential that you've got at your fingertips.

George: 9:14

I agree. And I actually think a lot of people Do give up on that idea before they've found the true potential of something. I think that, so many people are just on the cusp of it going somewhere before, they move on to something else whether or not that's because people get bored. Brand fatigue is something we talk about a lot when we're trying to get brands to use music, because two months down the line, people can get bored of that music very quickly. But if you think about your visual assets, you might get bored of them, but you've got to just keep, you've got to keep using them. And it's. It's only when you really push past that point that you start to see results. And I think that's a great metaphor for a lot of things in marketing, in business, branding, in life. A good friend of mine, how many years ago now, good friend of mine four or five years ago said, every good idea takes about 10 conversations before it becomes, a product or a service or something that's of value. And what I took from that was, if you can have as many conversations about an idea as possible, quite often you go full circle and all the feedback you get is. The idea is staring you in the face. With me, the connection of music and the business world that had been my life, for the last 30 years for me, was staring me in the face, just pairing those two together. It was only when somebody said, have you actually thought about branding, using music to brand brands rather than just artists and musicians? I was like, I never thought about that world even being a value to somebody.

Paul: 10:41

So talk me through it then. Like we talk about sonic branding, right? And I bet because it's such A unique, idea. It's not unique in that it hasn't been done before, but unique to a lot of people who are listening to this thing that they've never come across it before or considered it. What is sonic branding?

George: 10:59

So sonic branding, sound marketing. Audio identities. They're all terms for essentially the same thing, which is any use of sound related to a brand. And in a very basic form, you can think of it as the whistle of McDonald's or the badum you hear when you turn Netflix on, or it can just be that song that was used on an advert 10 years ago. That, that comes to mind. If I was to say to you, what was the advert you remember from 10 years ago, most people would remember a song or they'd sing you something before. They recall the visuals that went along with it. A good example we also use is when you're thinking about your. Bedroom when you were a kid, as an example, the posters on your wall or the songs that you used to listen to with your friends, which one gives you that emotional feeling? The most people lean towards sound. Some people will lean towards the visuals, but a lot of people will lean towards sounds. So we use those examples as examples of how brands use sound. A lot of the time, it's a one off. License or something with a TV campaign, piece of music with a TV campaign. But really we've got to be thinking about the overall identity of a brand through sound. And that is essentially

Paul: 12:13

So when we apply that to let's, so I can imagine that's very easily applied in people's minds to brands like, Coca Cola and Apple and Sony, but what about smaller brands and smaller businesses where maybe they're not quite putting out TV adverts and radio jingles and things like that. How would you envisage them using this?

George: 12:32

The smallest use case we quite often talk to brands about is social media. So the best use of social media is to choose a track or have a track made for you and use that track consistently because you then create an identity for yourself through that song. Now, songs have an amazing ability to give emotion. So if you're, if, and we, 90 percent of buyers will buy a product or buy a service. 90 percent is because of emotion and emotional connection to the brand, emotional connection to the message of the brand. And that's the thing that gets people over the line. That's the final tipping moment is when the emotions and call values all line up and you go, that's something I need, or that's something I believe in. That's something I want. And even with retail fashion, right? The world that you know very well, a lot of people are actually buying into the. The The, the feeling around the brand, the values the experience or the story and how they got to there. So it's all emotion. We're all buying on emotion at the end of the day. So music is a really powerful way of getting into that. So a good example is with social media, we were working with a brand, a company that we're trying to sell pensions and working in finance. We said, imagine if you were playing hip hop tracks. Is that going to connect to the older generation that you're trying to get, wealth management you're going to get that message across or? Another example is with a spirit company we worked with in Sweden. They were using tracks that they liked and it was songs like the Bee Gees. I guess it was songs that were, it was reminiscent of their childhood or when they were at home with their family. But then their target demographic was 18 to 25 year olds. So there's an argument there to be said that, are you really going to engage and connect with that audience? Probably not. So for their social media, we actually created a playlist of songs that they could use. And we even found a remix of the Bee Gees, but it brought it up to date. It got it. It meant the brand was speaking to the right demographic. So I would say that even on a everyday usage case with your social media. Think about the songs that you're using. Everybody's reaching for trending songs, but there's so many trending sounds out there. You can still choose a song that resonates with your audience and resonates with your message and the type of people you're wanting to engage. Don't just go for a hip hop track or like a trap song or a young millennial sounding song, just because it's popular, it might speak to the wrong audience. And you might actually turn people off by using the wrong song. So I would say that's the best example of an everyday use. It doesn't have, you don't have to be the biggest brand in the world. You can be a really humble brand, but it's just using

Paul: 15:05

So hopefully,

George: 15:06

way, I think is the first

Paul: 15:07

so hopefully we're not going to get too many people immediately starting to use drill rap and grime on LinkedIn, right? Cause it's not going to fly.

George: 15:14

Unless that's your

Paul: 15:15

think I genuinely,

George: 15:15

No. Unless that's something you're

Paul: 15:17

isn't on LinkedIn. I think if that's your audience, they're not on LinkedIn. I can guarantee that one. But I, hear what you're saying. So As two examples for you I created, when I first started out with the business, so about six months in, I decided I needed a showreel. Cause what we do with our business, we're a little bit unique in our space as well. And quite a lot of people are like, try and compare what we do with just standard video editing and repert and, and Mastering. And I'm like that's, not really our bag. It's part of what we do, but it's so much more than that. So I created a showreel and I created the to go here's some B roll and here's some words and it'll, it's going to empower you. And then I went and then now I needed some music to go with this. Cause, cause it's flat on its own, right? So I put some music with it and this music's quite it's building, it creates, and it gets to a crescendo right at the end. And I put it over the top of the showreel and I joke you not. I needed to move three scenes by less than three seconds to fit with the music that sat with it. And now when I see that showreel, I'm super, super engaged with it. I'm like, that's my baby. Cause I don't do that for clients. Do showreels. If you want a showreel, don't come to me. That's not what we do. But for our business, because it got it and it just finished it. And I just sat back afterwards and I showed everyone in my family. I was like, you need to see this. I've done a thing. I've done a thing. And it's Great visually. It's because the auditory experience that you go on while you're listening to it. Everybody's uplifted by the time they come to the end of it. I was like, what a nice piece of music. And then the flip side of that is.

George: 16:42

Yeah. And you know what? That's a great example. That's a really good example of when you are using, when you were choosing that song, we, how conscious were you of the audience you were trying to speak to, was that something that crossed your mind or was that, was it just, did it just move you and just felt

Paul: 16:57

think, I think the second, if I'm honest, like, it, it, I didn't do it with the audience in mind. I chose it because it felt like the kind of emotion I wanted to achieve. But then when I stopped, finished it and sat back with it, it just, everything just fell into place. And it was, I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie. I don't think I could do it a second time. I think it was serendipity. That's

George: 17:21

the beauty of that is that a lot, the beauty of it is that a lot of the time that will work because you know your brand really well. So you wouldn't choose a song that, you wouldn't choose the drill and trap song because you know that isn't what your ethos is anyway, right? So a lot of the times that will work, but only for people that are really deeply ingrained into the brand in the first place. Now, imagine you've got a team of people. You've hired them, they're great at what they do, but they're not fully invested in the same way that you are. That's when we often see the mistakes because you need to really consider the audience at that point. And it'd be interesting if you revisited that video, and thought, what kind of clients do we really want to speak to and attract and engage with and feel really connected with, cause that's what we're all trying to B2B, right? How do you think you would have approached that song if you were to do that? Again, it's a really interesting question and that's ultimately what we're trying to do with our, the start of our conversations. It's, Sonic Branding isn't a term that everybody knows. We're trying to engage people just in the thought process of it. Later down the line, I'd love to be in a situation where we could create you that track, bespoke for that show reel and it fits perfectly and we know we've spoken, we've been through the process of figuring out your demographic, etc. But really, the starting block is, have you ever thought about who this song is going to speak to, and is it the perfect song, to your best knowledge, that would speak to them? And A really fun process from that point onwards.

Paul: 18:45

and you're right again,

George: 18:46

Cause it moves you

Paul: 18:47

emotions and memories combined with music, it's just, it's so powerful and even working with I work with a couple of podcasts and you create their intros and outros and trailers and things, and it's generally, because they've been low budget stuff we've we've stuck with, What's within the what's within the platform that's royalty free already and there's usually quite a decent selection of stock stuff in there but seeing the difference in the client's response between Here's your trailer. Now here's your trailer with some music over the top. Oh, this is amazing. Like it's so professional and all that. So I do totally get it. and I'm a big advocate for we're a big advocate for video in general, right? But I always say video is just one aspect of what you're trying to do. You need good copy to go with it because people want to read the story of the context of what's on there and you need to create thoughts and questions and engage them, but then also. A lot of people watch movie watch videos on social media these days with the sound off, right? Kids are in bed and they're trying to get stuff done. So when they do turn the sound on, you want to make an impact. You want to be different. and I think that what you're talking about there is just a fantastic way of subliminally almost impacting on their, buying mood, their frame of mind, how they perceive you and how they perceive your brand. I love it.

George: 20:04

Absolutely. And the beauty of sound is that you actually get access to people without even having to pay for them, because like you say, a lot of people do listen with sound off, but imagery and visuals are the world is changing. We're getting into a more sound on world. You mentioned yourself about Amazon Alexa in your house, right? We are moving into a world where we're ordering more products, via voice. And how do you know when you've ordered that product to the right shop? Like, how do you know when you're shopping, has reached the right people, or it's even gone through in the first place. I was speaking to a guy the other day who turned up to a hotel in another country for his holiday, thinking he'd booked a hotel, but he hadn't, but he thought he had. So he's, he was recalling this thinking if I'd have heard that little tick sound or that little confirmation noise that it had gone through, maybe subconsciously, I would have. Or if I hadn't heard that, but I was expecting to, maybe I would have stopped just for that split moment, but all those sounds, if you are sat on a bus and somebody is listening to TikTok, Instagram or Netflix for that matter, you hear that ba dum of Netflix on somebody's phone and you go, ah, Netflix, we should watch a film tonight. That's marketing that's happened without you even having to pay for it. And I find that side really interesting. Especially when you're talking about the emotion that comes with that. With the music that you're using on a client's showreel or, an initiative or in an activation campaign that's going out, people will hear the emotion, be like, Oh, that sounds really nice. What are you listening to? Is this new brand? Those moments happen a lot more now and people are being brave and are putting on their volume on the train or, we're on a different world now and imagery. I think it is. Yeah. I think that the boundaries are shifting on, the importance of visual. Music is. Sound, should I say, is creeping up behind very

Paul: 21:50

I love it. So I guess what's next in audio branding then? What's the next trends that are coming down the line? You talk there about people being more open to having their volume on when watching social media and stuff. So what's, what do you see being the impact of all of that?

George: 22:03

I think we're going to have a lot more attention with brand experiences. And by that, we're all fight. So many brands are fighting for the visual platforms at the minute. And I think a lot of brands are going to flip the script and figure out how can we give people different experiences to remember us by, because it's. It's so important to not underestimate brand recall. It's the cheapest way of getting sales resales, sorry. It's the cheapest way of marketing because you've already sold your brand to those people. So how do you stay in front of mind of those people? And we're going to be, as brands, we're going to be looking at different ways To be front of mind and keep people engaged and keep people coming back. So sound, smells, events, anything that's going to capture people's attention, I think is going to become a really important platform for people to, to sell their brand. From our point of view with sound, we're seeing a lot of product sounds coming in. The Alexas, as we're talking about, when you open your car door cars are being, even the lower end of cars now have so many like high quality gadgets, high quality, what's the word I'm looking for? High quality features. So when you open the door and you hear the little ping, when you're getting into your car, those little brand experiences are going to become a lot more popular. The Alexas. We're going to hear a lot more MasterCard have just rebranded their audio. So whenever you pay on MasterCard now, wherever you are in a pub, in a shop, there's a little sound that now happens as a confirmation. It's that bit of trust that you sometimes need with a brand to be like, Oh, I'm being looked after. I know my money is safe. So we're going to see a lot more of those small. Interactions will be subliminal. You almost don't notice them, but you feel something. You feel that trust, but then also on, the lower end with the smaller brands, I think we want to be thinking more about the songs that we're using in the store or the songs that we're using with our campaigns on social media, The little clips that we're putting out daily, cause everyone's trying to hit a daily goal of putting something on socials, the experience of the brand as a whole is going to become really important more so than ever just to stand out and just keep that recall. So I think I could get really technical on some other ways that music's going to be used in terms of products and in terms of experience. But I think on the day to day level, it's just the attention and the detailed work that's In sound and taking sound a little bit more seriously. A great stat I found the last, the other week was sound actually has a two and a half times faster recall rate than visuals. So whenever you hear something, it only takes an average three times to remember it, whereas visuals, it's about five to seven. So if we're going to take seven and three, two and a half times faster recall rate, sound to visual. So that's the world we're moving into at the minute as well is. Yeah. How can we capture people's attention, stand out, and then be remembered amongst all of this noise that we're getting

Paul: 24:57

Two things that come from that is first of all, you can take my money if you can get my car to call me Michael and ask me how I am every time I get in. And for those of us who are old enough to know what I'm talking about, you are in the boss. We're all ready for that moment. You could probably already do it in a Tesla. Hello, Michael. I just need that. I'll change my name to Michael. If I can get a car that does that, I'm there. I'm just there.

George: 25:19

We've just brought up we've just brought up another thought, two, two forms of sonic branding there that, that is from your memory and your recall that, becomes part of the conversation in the future.

Paul: 25:30

It's true though, right, And I can guarantee, thought for people at home as well. I often, I do a lot of networking. I meet a lot of fantastic people. I'd be willing to bet that if I heard the voice of somebody who I networked with a month ago, I could remember their name. But if you showed me a picture of them, I'd struggle to remember their name. I'd probably remember something about them. Which is just a weird connection to have, right? I, you will remember that their voice, you'll definitely remember mine if you've networked with me, cause I've got so many hours of footage on LinkedIn. It's unreal people turning me off. But yeah I reckon that's, I reckon that's the case. Which is, and it's no small surprise that,

George: 26:07

Yeah, I've not thought about it. It's a very

Paul: 26:09

brought in audio events. After they brought in LinkedIn live stream, right? I might have to admit, I'm still, I still haven't tried an audio event. I keep meaning to, and then just part of me goes, wow, but you won't get any edits out of that. So you can't really repurpose it cause you can't record it. Okay. But I will eventually get around to it. On the other side of that then, so what's something to do with marketing or branding in terms of mistakes or strategies that don't work that you just wish people would, businesses owners would stop doing right now?

George: 26:38

I personally think this is around stock. So we did touch on stock music earlier, stock images. We went through a time where everyone was using stock images and all marketing companies and agencies were saying, please stop using stock images because it just cheapens the brand. You can you can call it out a mile away. Now we're guilty of this. I'm pretty sure on our website, we've still got some stock images there. Granted, we're not in the visual world. So that's, that would be my only defense. But the same thing happens with music. So my, my, my genuine response to that would be if you can, budgets don't have to restrict you, but don't reach for stock only because the worst case scenario is that loads of brands have used that same song and you're going to then be in the same pigeonhole as them, and they might be totally different brands, they might have a totally. Total different goal. They might have different core values and then you're being mixed up with that brand, especially if they have a video that goes viral or for whatever reason. They become recognized and then you're associated with that as well. Try anything else, do anything else, come speak to us, do any other research. What I would just recommend is steer clear of stock music because I think people can sniff it out quite easily. Easily. And I think it can cheapen a brand. I don't mean to insult anybody with that, but I think, that extra little level of detail of the interesting conversation I had with an agency, branding agency, not too long ago, they said their brands on average spend 4 percent of their marketing budget on sound. My response was, do you think sound only has a 4%? Increase in, in the impact that it has when it goes out. And their response was no, absolutely not. It's, it's way up there, close to 50%, 50%, if not beyond it. If they use a track that, John Lewis is a great example. Those, the music that goes with their adverts, every Christmas comes around. It moves everybody, it moves the whole nation. Everyone's looking forward to it. So would you expect them to have only spent 4 percent of their marketing budget on the music? Considering how much impact it has, the answer would probably be no. So I would say don't spend only 4 percent of your attention on the music by reaching for stock music and it being an afterthought. So that would come to my second point to answer your question. Put music. At the forefront also of the conversations when you're creating content, when you're planning a campaign, when you're planning the next year goals of your business, a lot of people plan how it's visually going to go out to the world, but also at the front end of the project, consider how sound taps into that as well. Because if you play it right, sound could be the element that takes that project, that takes that campaign, that takes your brand to the next level. And it's massively underutilized. So you're fighting in a very different world. If you're fighting for visuals, every, it's a very busy market. Everybody's in that world right now, but sounds much, I was gonna say sound is much quieter, but ironically that's not the case,

Paul: 29:38

I think we take sound for granted. I think we take sound for granted. hands on heart. Even those of us in the video world, right? Like I speak to a lot of people and they're giving advice about this camera, that camera, and my clients come to me and they're like, what setup do I need, Paul? I'm like, honestly? Mostly, a camera's a camera the more expensive you can afford one, to a certain extent, great, but you don't need loads of bells and whistles, tell you what you do need, and I say this to everyone, tell you what you do need, and I had this conversation this morning, a decent microphone, because it makes all the difference. It makes all the difference. I do an audio only podcast, it's bedtime stories. And this bad boy here, not the most expensive in the world, it's 200 quid brand new for a set of three, two transmitters and a receiver, but it is phenomenally better than any of these fellas. Like phenomenally better, like crystal clear, even out, I can record going down a road with the bit on the, I'm not technical, right? Fluffy bit on the end of my microphone, walking down the road,

George: 30:36

Dead

Paul: 30:37

cat on the end, looking like an absolute imbecile with my idiot stick, talking to myself, For videos for LinkedIn, but when I get home and edit that audio, I can remove the sound of all the cars. It's brilliant.

George: 30:48

Yeah, it's amazing. And you can have a great camera, but if you have bad audio, people struggle to hear it. I remember my dad when I was younger, and this has stayed with me. He said to a certain song that I loved, he said, I really don't like it, and I can't work out why. And after we talked about it for a little while, The quality of the music was great, but he couldn't understand what the singer was saying. And for him, that was how he connects to music. It's the stories, it's the lyrics. Now, if you think of that in a branding point of view, you can have a great camera, but if you can't understand what's being said and what's happening, and the audio is not good, for want of a better word You're just not going to get the message across. So I do think sound is that big priority and we can tap back to the emotion, good sound, good emotion. You're going

Paul: 31:31

Absolutely. I love it. Thank you very much for your inputs today, George. If somebody resonates with what you've said today, hey, see what I did there? If somebody resonates with that and they want to find out more, how can they best reach you?

George: 31:43

Two ways you could join me on LinkedIn. I'm always in the messages so we can have a good chat on there or you can head to our website, which is hearmeoutmusic.

Paul: 31:51

Love And I'll make sure all the the links are in the show notes as ever. thanks for coming along. Thank you at home for watching. If you enjoyed the episode, give us a subscribe. I'd love it if you give us a review and definitely if you've got any thoughts on any future guests, drop me a line. I'm always open to hearing from you if you've got anybody you'd like to have on the show as a potential guest. George, have a great week. Thanks for your time.

George: 32:14

Thank you, mate.