Paul: 0:29

Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers. This week I'm joined by Jeremy Jacobs. Jeremy, lovely to have you on the show, mate.

Jeremy: 0:38

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to be on here, even though it's taken us a while to get to this point, on many levels.

Paul: 0:46

Yeah any other podcast hosts who are listening along to the show you will be nodding in a moment when I tell you that like the technical problems with today's setup were We're real. We had some

Jeremy: 0:56

Extra.

Paul: 0:57

So yeah, thank you very much for your perseverance, Jeremy.

Jeremy: 1:01

Oh no, not a problem. Not a problem.

Paul: 1:03

So a little short background for Jeremy for those who don't know you Jeremy's an experienced entrepreneur and market consultant. So he's probably best known for founding Cookie Jar, which is a next generation business consultancy and Corn Cobs, which is a paid media advertising agency. I love the food I'm a big foodie. I love it. I love it. I can tell we're going to get along. So Jeremy's got over

Jeremy: 1:25

I'm laughing.

Paul: 1:26

marketing. He's managed global campaigns for brands like ASOS and BMW, and he's also previously co founded Raise Bakery, we're so aligned, food is everywhere. Raise Bakery, grew it to a 7, figure business, and now uses that expertise to coach entrepreneurs, especially those with ADHD. Empower them to build sustainable and impactful businesses. I feel like I know you before we even start talking, Jeremy.

Jeremy: 1:53

That's good.

Paul: 1:54

I love it. I love it. So first up, you originally started running a bakery, right? Am I right to say that? How did you get from running a

Jeremy: 2:03

Yes. Actually there's a part which you may not know because I've recently changed my LinkedIn profile and I've focused on what I'm doing now, but I actually had a career prior to starting a bakery with no food experience or very little in digital marketing. I'll give you the short version of a long story. I start, I left uni, I went to uni slightly later than most people. I went 21 and I wanted to be a web designer, which I say is like this current generation's version of content creator slash influencer and got a job at a small agency in Brighton. And as anyone who knows when you run a small business, you're expected to do everything. And I was asked to start taking on paid search clients. And that was my bag really, when I was working there and then eventually got headhunted to go up to London to work with a couple of big agencies up there and it was, I was like 20, 26 at the time and I was like an account director and yeah, and it was a baptism by fire, but I really, that was where I really started my journey into working with these big agencies and big clients purely in paid search. That was what I did. So yeah, it's been 20, 20 years. Which makes me feel Ansel sounds very old.

Paul: 3:19

I don't think we're too far apart in age, Jeremy. So I've had some of those moments myself in the last week. My son turned seven over the weekend and me and my wife realized that he could well have been 20 and fly in the coop had we Earlier together. But hey, we're just going through the pain of having a seven year old instead. That's fun So first up, before I get stuck into anything else, what's with the constant food references? Why is food so important in your business life? I

Jeremy: 3:45

So yeah, that's a good question. You'll know by, corn cobs, cookie jar, Raise bakery was, Hopefully reasonably obvious. It was called something before then. But we had to rebrand it to Raise Bakery and it was the, raising of cakes. And we didn't make bread, but raising of cakes. But also it had a lot of other connotations. I really like to choose names that have more meaning behind them and mean something to me. So we picked Raise Bakery. We learned that, you have to go and check. You've got the domain name and it's not trademark registered, which we didn't do. Hence why I had to change the name. And then cookie jar just came off the back of like my obsession with cookies. And I started the cookie jar actually just before the pandemic started. My intention was always to help other business owners. Learn from the mistakes that I'd made, so they can shortcut them, the people who are willing to listen. And that wasn't me when I was building my business. Willing to listen and want that help, to help them to grow a business, because I love helping people. And I picked Cookie Jar because it was a story about the fact that my Nan always used to have a cookie jar on her kitchen counter, and I was never allowed in it. It was always controlled. And it's, it was this idea of take what you want from life and take from the cookie jar. So I've got this whole story about that. And then corn cobs, I'm still slightly cringe when I say it cause it sounds a bit cheesy, but actually if you cover up the first two letters of my surname, Jacobs, you've got cobs. And I just picked corn cobs. That's how my ADHD brain works. It just sounded fun and I went with it, and it gets people talking.

Paul: 5:17

I love it. And that's exactly it, right? For me, there are so many businesses out there that struggle when they first get into a business conversation. And for me, Don't have that struggle, right? I love having conversations with people and I can naturally get into that relationship building. But for a lot of those people that do struggle, I think that's a brilliant tactic to think about, is can you name your business something that will generate that conversation naturally? Because you will have that Time you meet a new person, over and over again. And I love the idea behind it, Jeremy. thank you for sharing that.

Jeremy: 5:50

You're welcome.

Paul: 5:51

I guess, you Cookie jar then, I really align with that because that's why we started this show in the first place, right? This whole podcast is built around the I'm not a marketing expert. And if I'm not, I know there's lots of other people out there who aren't. And I wanted to pick people's brains and understand what they do and when I need different services and share that with our audience, either from a business owner's perspective or a marketeer's perspective. And you're you're both, you're not you're very much both. Cookie Jar really aligns with where we're going as a podcast. So how do you guys stand out in the marketplace? What's unique about Cookie Jar? Yeah

Jeremy: 6:30

the kind of, the clients I work with, that's an important place to start because I'm working with small business owners. And the thing that makes me stand out from people is one, There's always this, there's there's always a lot of pressure I feel on business owners to stand out and try and come up with this really unique way of standing out and being very different and that is so important in a crowded market. And you being you and doing the things you do the way you do is a USP. You cannot be replicated. And when With all of my clients, I'm working very closely with them on a day to day basis and they have to like me and they have to get on with me and so that isn't particularly a very good answer from a marketing perspective and and it's how I feel about it really and the other thing is that I have been in their shoes. And I understand where they're coming from and their pain points and their challenges. And, marketing 101 is define your ideal customer persona and figure out what their challenges are and what their pain points are and continually speak into that. And given the fact that I've done that for 18 years, I don't need to do that research. I know exactly how they're feeling. And what's really important for me is when my, when I'm doing my coaching, whether I'm doing my marketing, whatever I'm doing, it's, You, it's about creating an environment where that person can show up and feel heard and understood and not judged and there's a lot of this in small business owners where they feel like they should be doing this the right way, should be, right? And the fact is, we're all learning. I wasn't, I didn't start a business with all this business knowledge. No one does. You can go and do an MBA like I did. That won't teach you how to run a business. The only way to learn how to run a business is to go and run a business. So we're all trying very hard and I know that for my clients, it's really important that they can show up and just be themselves and be really honest because we need to get to the bottom of what isn't working as much as we do what is working. And the only way to do that is for people who have to go I don't know what I'm doing, or I've tried this and it really failed and messed up and it's okay, cool. We know what we're working with and then we can go from there. I think those are probably the, I can probably think of some really slick marketing responses, but they're not, that's my truth

Paul: 9:02

it's just

Jeremy: 9:02

that's who I am.

Paul: 9:04

that. I like that. And I think it's nice that you've got also a focus on the coaching element of it with looking after that personal wellbeing as well. Because I see a lot of entrepreneurs out there who. I always say if things are great at home, and things are tough at work, you can survive. And if things are tough at work, but they're all I've said that before. If things are okay at home, but they're tough at work, then you can survive. And when both are really tough Where do you go to when you're an entrepreneur? So that's really important for me is I've built a really good support network and that's important for me as a person to make sure I'm checking in on my colleagues and network. it's interesting to see somebody balancing support in early stage businesses with that personal wellbeing as part of a coaching strategy as well. Is that, I imagine that's quite rewarding. I know.

Jeremy: 10:18

It is, it's rewarding for my clients and it's rewarding for me. The emphasis on this comes from Really challenging times. So one thing that we haven't mentioned, which you may know from my profile is I closed Raise Bakery three years ago. And I did that. I could have kept on going, but I made that choice to close and it was Really hard and really easy decision to make. And the reason that I took that decision to close is that I was in a new relationship who is now, I'm now married to that person. And and I remember standing and actually it's getting me a little bit like emotional thinking about, I remember standing in the street outside my house and I had to go into work and I was on the edge of having a breakdown. I had enough. I was exhausted. Yeah, I was just, I was done really. And I remember saying, I just was like, I don't want to go into work, but I got in the car and I went to work and it wasn't till about another two months later that I actually went, do you know what? I'm done. I'm done here. I've had enough. I've given it all my all and I just don't want to do it anymore. And Going through that process made me realize that life is too short. I lost a friend a couple of years ago to cancer. I saw him and he lives, he lived in America. I saw him six months, he was gone and he had an amazing life. And it just makes you realize that life is just too short for this. There's too much crap going on in the world right now. And it is absolutely possible for people to be able to have a thriving, thriving, growing, successful business. And, have a great personal life. You can't run a business successfully, constantly in this survival stress state. It's just no good for anyone, but it's so easy to get caught up in that because you've got your business, it's your baby, you've got all these, these pressures, and you've got these, Dickhead, excuse my language, Dickhead influencers on social media pushing this message that you've got to grind and hustle and make it work. There is a very small part of our entrepreneur community who work like that and, your life, you go and do what you want, but you've really got a question and be able to take a step back and go, is this what I want for myself? Cause it's alluring and it's really tempting to be pulled into it. And. I don't think most people really want that. And probably most people won't achieve that. So it's checking your ego and just taking a step back and, thinking, is this how I want my life to live? And it's a hundred percent about going and getting help, whether that's a business coach or a mentor, a fellow entrepreneur, a networking group, people on LinkedIn, like talking, to people about what you're dealing with is so important. And for me, that is the core of what I do. And it's, I'm always checking my clients. Are you okay? Are we pushing too hard? And always checking it. And it's just, it becomes almost ridiculous that we think that there's this person with a personal life here and a business owner here and the two are separate. They're not, they're all one. Yeah, probably, hopefully that's answered your question.

Paul: 13:41

in the answer though. I love the passion in the answer and it's clear how much you get out of what you, somebody describe it the other day as pouring themselves into their clients as a coach. And I love that idea that it's pouring your soul into those people. And I really do resonate with that. And it brings me nicely one more topic to come onto before we come back more to the marketing side of things. ADHD and entrepreneurship is such an important topic for me because. I self diagnosed a couple of years back. I still haven't decided whether I'm going to go the formal route or not. My son's in the process. He's seven. He's going through the process of being assessed towards it. And hands on heart, I just, I'm quite open and transparent about it. Like I've accepted it. I've lived with it all my life, right? Like I didn't know about it, but now I can articulate it nicely

Jeremy: 14:27

mm.

Paul: 14:28

I'm comfortable with it. I'm still learning And pretty much every business owner I speak to I see elements of ADHD or autism or just neurodiversity in the people that I speak

Jeremy: 14:41

Haha,

Paul: 14:42

nobody's it's yet taken offence, like I don't think, anyway. But I important that we just have that open communication about it. You work with a lot of entrepreneurs who have ADHD. So how do you How can people tailor their business and their marketing strategies to suit themselves being neurodiverse, I think is the question, rather than directed specifically at ADHD, because we're very much shiny object syndrome, dopamine hits, endorphins, satisfaction levels, so much going on. How do you help them bring that to a constructive end?

Jeremy: 15:18

So I have, I was diagnosed with ADHD four years ago. I think for me personally, the first step, like you've just demonstrated really is you've got to come to terms with it. And the problem is that again, social media and humans are mocking, everyone's got ADHD and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So it's super important to first of all, get a support network of people around you that have the condition. And you're able to come to terms with it because you, if you can't talk about it openly without cringing or feeling awkward, then you haven't accepted that's what you've got. And there's these challenges with with diagnosis, particularly in the UK, waiting lists, et cetera. I was lucky cause I got in early. So I was able to get diagnosed within six months. But my message, the main, my main message around all of this is diagnosis is a personal choice and it's, I think it's really important. I think it's very useful for people and everyone's individual. My ADHD will not manifest the same way it does for you and my life experiences as well, what I've been through the gender difference as well, all that sort of stuff. So it's really important to come to terms with it and understand the uniqueness of you and what makes you tick and what your challenges are. And that doesn't need a diagnosis, right? I've got comorbid with OCD and obsessive thinking sometimes. So I think if you're listening to this and you think you've got ADHD or you're waiting for a diagnosis, it doesn't really matter because you are the way you are and that's about self acceptance of the way you are. So that's the first thing. And then I think the biggest challenge for us all is undoing the systems that we live in and the expectations of us. This world has been built for neurotypical people, understandably, because of the fact that there's more of them and we don't have the awareness that we do now. But there's these pressures that we pick up on. 95 percent of our thoughts are subconscious. We are Absorbing so much data and information you have no idea and it's all going into your brain. And so we're picking up these messages about work Monday to Thrive. Do this, do that, should be the la. And so it's undoing that and and thinking about how is it best for me to work. I sometimes don't work on a Monday morning and I work in the afternoon and evening. And sometimes I don't work on Mondays at all. I have to go with my energy levels. I think it's really about understanding where you're at and what you need. And then the final point really, which I won't go into too much detail. I've, I write a lot, I've got a newsletter and blog posts about this, about supporting people. And then it's about understanding what you're capable of. I think for me personally, when I was first diagnosed, it was like, I've got ADHD, so I can't do X, Y, and Z. No, my approach is. And by the way, this is my view. So if you don't agree with it, fair enough, but this is how I see it. Which is cause it's hard to sit there and go I see it this way. Cause people come back at you, but try it on, do it your way. But I've been doing it this way. My clients have been doing it this way. And this is the expectations I have on myself and them, which is, it's not about, I can't, it's about, it's just harder. Now, don't get me wrong. I just want to like really make a point that there are some things which Really are just really hard and sometimes impossible. So it's not about that, but it's just about opening up and being curious about how can I do things How can I push myself a little bit more? Okay, so I'm struggling to focus right now. I'm not going to sit there and force myself. I'm going to change up my diary and my day and move things around, but I can focus. It's just about finding that right combination of ways of working and doing things differently that fits you. And unfortunately that takes time and two, it will take effort. If you broke your leg. And you were at the bottom of a flight of stairs, you can get up the stairs, it's just going to take a lot more effort. And that is really the reality for me of people with ADHD. It will take more effort. It's going to be a bit harder, look at what your goal is and you can absolutely, that's the key message is you can do it. It's not a, it's not, it shouldn't be something that stops you just about looking at things differently. Brilliant.

Paul: 19:44

I love that. I think I resonate with a lot of what you've said there. It's certainly around having energy and focus at different times of the day. Like I've now shifted when I do certain activities to more focused times where I know that I'm better and that can change from week to week. And, there are some afternoons where I'm sat there and it's three o'clock in the afternoon. I really, it's not that I can't be bothered. It's I just really don't want to do what I'm about to do. And I haven't got anything else to do. I'm going to take two hours, go play with my family and I'm going to come back to the laptop at half past eight at night and do two hours then when I'm a bit calmer. So I think, yeah, it's absolutely about that. Why do what you've always done if it doesn't work for you and questioning everything around you that breaking the system thing that you mentioned at the beginning. Again, I started running my own business and I found myself working Monday to Friday and two, three months in, I went, why am I working Fridays? I don't need to work Fridays. of my week not doing anything. Cause I'm bored. Cause I've done everything. Like why don't I everything into four days and take a Friday for myself. And the moment I flipped the frame in on a from. It's a working day that I'm going to have off, to, it's a family day that I can work some of if I need to. changed Fridays for me. I don't even consider working Fridays most do the odd

Jeremy: 21:00

Brilliant.

Paul: 21:01

So if you're a business owner that's definitely listen to Jeremy. Think about what you just accept. Because I can guarantee, are so many things that you accept as A should, to go back to what you said earlier, a should be, don't should all over yourself. Do what's right for you. Fantastic. I love it. To bring it back a bit more towards marketing things. So you've obviously spent quite a lot of time in paid media, which is quite a, it's quite a tough, quick moving, expertise area, like what worked, I'm sure, what worked 20 years ago doesn't even come into play anymore. Whilst the strategies might stay the same, the tactics are vastly different and even month to month probably shift quite a lot. So I could ask you, what's one of the main misconceptions that business owners have about digital advertising? And what can they do about that?

Jeremy: 21:50

Yeah so yeah, so I think with paid media, so I'm talking specifically mostly about search engine marketing. So Google Ads, Bing, even though it's 95 percent Google Ads. And within that, there's a whole, there's a whole world of stuff that you can look at. There's display there's video, there's YouTube there's all sorts of stuff, shopping, et cetera. I think the biggest misconception is that it doesn't work for small businesses. I'm really still surprised about showing up to networking meetings and I very rarely come across another paid marketing person. I'm like, is this, am I the only one here? It's great. Cause. But I think that there's this really strange thing that I find, which is a bit of a yeah, it's just very strange. So Google, Facebook, Meta, they make it super easy for people to sign up, to go and advertise, right? You'd think logical strategy because we want to get people on our platform and starting to sign up, but they shoot themselves in the foot because They encourage people to go through their automated campaign setups. Smart campaigns is a classic example. Google's machine learning is way ahead Less intelligent than Google gives it credit. And what happens, and I've seen this time and time again with small businesses, is they come to me and they go, I've tried it, it doesn't work. And I go in and I go, yeah, cause you've got a smart campaign set up. Your conversion tracking is not set up. It's tracking things that aren't true conversions, the data you want to capture, or the actions you want your client to take. It's, Just doing a terrible job and spending your money and it's not working. So they end up shutting it down. And so it's a kind of, yeah, it's this misconception that it's not right for small businesses and also it's expensive. And people think, oh I'll go and do all this free stuff. Social media, search engine optimization, which are both really powerful tools. But every single business I've ever started, I've always started off building it off the back of paid search. My first business, Ray's Bakery, that was all built off the back of paid search. My coaching business, 90 percent of my leads come through paid search. I don't have to do anything. I'm sitting here talking to you and people are looking at my website and sending me messages. So I think that's the biggest misconception that it's not going to work for them. That said. You, and I'm trying not to plug myself too much, but you do need to go and get help. And I know that's coming from an expert, but you really do because in the same reason why you don't or shouldn't be doing your finances for yourself you go get an accountant. An accountant costs money, but they save you money in the long term. This is so true for paid search, particularly for Google, that it will save you money in the long term. And I think people should really consider it as part of their marketing mix and I don't think many people do.

Paul: 24:43

For a business let's say they're doing 500, 000 a year as it stands already, right? Maybe they're already going to a certain extent. What would you recommend to them would be a starting point if they've gotten that far without paid media and they're doing that on, word of mouth, organic and what have you, what's the ratio for budget spend on paid media in your view? To get started.

Jeremy: 25:03

If they're doing a 500k a year, this is the thing. So I've got businesses that are, that I work with that are doing multi million pound businesses and they're spending a few thousand pounds a month on paid search. And then I've got small businesses that are probably spending, 50 percent of what they're already. I think it's about Your appetite for growth. It very much depends on the business. I primarily work with B2B clients. I do some B2C, I avoid Ecom because it's a very specific discipline within that world. And so it's. My thing I would say to people in that situation is go and have a look at Google's data about how many people are searching for your business on Google every day, and then think about the fact that your competitors are potentially getting a lot of that traffic. Yes, you might be strong on search engine optimization, but you're definitely not going to be able to cover all the bases. And that's where paid search is really useful. But also if it's a particularly competitive term, then you are actually taking up more of the real estate on the search engine results pages, which means just you're there, you're more present. So I think it's hard to be able to say you've got 500K business. You can spend. 500 pounds a month, you can spend a grand and still get more leads coming in. I think the most important thing that people need to realize is the more data you have, the quicker you can make decisions about whether or not it's working and you can start to inform strategy. I say to all my clients, minimum of three months. To be able to get a sense of where we're at, if you're spending a lot of money, we're going to get a ton of data. It might be a bit quicker. There's lots of areas you need to optimize in the account itself, but also in your landing pages, your messaging, et cetera. So it is very complex in comparison to other marketing channels like Save SEO, et cetera. I sometimes get clients go, how much could I spend? And I go, how much have you got? Like literally, there's so much traffic and data out there that's coming through that you can jump on the back of. That sometimes in some industries, it's write a check and I'll spend it for you,

Paul: 27:20

Yeah. But you'll see the

Jeremy: 27:21

sounds, can I just say, I was going to say, I'll add to that. That was a terrible place to write the sentence. I'm not just going to. Piss it up the wall. But what I mean is you, because it, I could go, I could do a hard podcast on the, generic keywords, broad match keywords versus exacts and brand building and direct response in paid search. You can spend a lot of money. Of course, with smaller businesses, you want direct response. You want people going, I need this thing, right? Someone types in business coach Brighton. They're looking for a business coach in Brighton. I'm there. Hello. So I want to have as much real estate there as possible. Yeah.

Paul: 28:00

Love it. Perfect. Thank you very much for that. And then I guess then moving to the two questions that I ask all of our guests, which I think are quite important. So what's one thing, one market and practice perhaps that you, if you could wave a magic wand, you would just stop business owners trying to do in their industry. Is there something out there? And I can guarantee, I can see by the smile on your face that there is, there's always something that gets people's burning. What is it?

Jeremy: 28:25

Oh, it's just this really cold, slimy, outbound nonsense. Maybe it's just me, right? But I'm, Maybe it's cause I'm in marketing, right? But just stop trying to insert yourself in your business, into someone's life without any just anything cold, outbound, cold emails phone, outbound calling LinkedIn. Honestly, the amount of times I get You know, LinkedIn requests, and then just boom, straight away a message. I've stopped accepting people in that respect. It, don't get me wrong, it does work, right? It will work, but it's it's not as effective but it's short term, right? And there are a lot of people, there's a lot of young men in bedrooms selling lead generation services on Meta.

Paul: 29:15

Yeah.

Jeremy: 29:16

And they come up on my lead, on my feeds all the time, and it drives me nuts. So no disrespect to what they're doing, but that, if I could get rid of That and get that out of the world. That would be amazing. The obvious solution to that is page search. Not a bug, but long, it's about building an audience. That is, that's so important for businesses. Now it's building an audience, understand who your ideal customer persona your ideal buyer is really understand what problems they have. And that's the key. What problems they have. The solution will come, but it's trying to force the solution before you've actually accepted and built trust with that person. I'm probably talking about like services, B2C, B2B rather services more than anything else. But it's about building trust and building an audience and warming them up and proving that you are their kind of person, that you've got the knowledge and the experience. The sad thing is, That takes so much time and so much energy and effort that it's tempting to go down these slimier, colder routes. But, not a lot I can do about that, unfortunately.

Paul: 30:26

Because magnetically polarize themselves away from that stuff and come to me instead and I just make out of that. But secondly, We live in this world where we've conned ourselves into thinking that you have to work backwards from business landed to how many opportunities do I generally win, to work back to how many leads I need to reach out to how many prospects I need to have at the beginning, and then I want to go for double my revenue, so I need to double my leads, and then I'm going to reach out to 500, 000 people this month. I can't possibly do that by hand, so I have to automate it, I have to hyper personalize it with, hey, Jeremy, I can see that you live in Brighton and the McDonald's there is fantastic. Have you tried the double cheeseburger? But this is a con. You're leaving yourself open by doing this. There are better ways and I'm guilty, right? I have tried to do this in the past, right? And there is relative success. There's tactics you can use that can help you stand out. And I'm not going to get into all of that. But the point what I'm trying to say here is, if you stop assuming that you need attrition at the beginning of your pipeline, and if you research and find your good fit and know your audience well enough, You can do good outreach where you don't need to sell because the moment you connect with someone they realize that you solved their problems. And that kind of leads nicely into paired media as well, because if you've got the two side by side, it's about bringing eyeballs to your content and to your website and to your LinkedIn profile. And if you can do that, you pull the clients to you rather than pushing your content on them, which is not a nice place to be.

Jeremy: 32:06

That's a really good way of putting it. Yeah, I like that.

Paul: 32:09

I love it. much for taking the time to be with us today, Jeremy. I've really enjoyed the conversation. We should definitely get you back on as a guest later on.

Jeremy: 32:16

Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Paul: 32:19

Awesome. And if you're watching or listening along at home, Don't forget, hit subscribe, give us a rating, please give us a rating, I love those ratings when they come in and if you don't want to give us a rating, cause you want to tell me how rubbish I am, drop me an email, I love those emails too we've not had any yet for the show, but, I've I do love a bit of constructive feedback, cause that's how we learn, you got any advice for the show, anything that you would do differently, any guests that you'd recommend, give us a line, this is your show as much as it is ours, thanks, bye bye. Bye.