Paul: 0:29

And welcome to another episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers. I'm Paul, founder here at Javelin Content Management, and my fantastic guest this week is a good friend of mine. Welcome to the show, Dave Plunkett. Happy to have you, mate.

Dave: 0:44

Oh, I'm delighted to be here, Paul, and welcome listeners. Hi.

Paul: 0:48

if you don't know Dave, Wow, how do I describe what you do succinctly Dave? So you're a bit of a dynamic force really, and Dave sits somewhere between strategic partnerships and referral marketing. So he's the founder of Collaboration Junkie, and he's got a knack for marketing. Like I do for connecting people and leveraging those relationships to drive business growth, which is the important thing for a lot of people, a lot of focus on that. Dave's developed his own DANCE framework for strategic partnerships, which I can attest to having been through that process. It is a game changer for many businesses and it helps businesses scale through effective referral and partnership strategies. Dave's got a career spanning lots of interesting industries, he's developed partnerships on a global level as well as working with start ups and right down to micro businesses. he's worked with giants like Regis and Volvo, but more recently he's become more consultative in his approach, focused much more on his coaching and workshops, and what everybody talks about widely when we mention Dave is just that he brings bags of energy and passion to the table. There is no such thing as a dull conversation. Dave, thank you very much for joining us on the show. I am looking forward to seeing the highlights from this already. How are you? are you? surviving summer holidays?

Dave: 2:17

ours haven't started yet. So, my, my eldest two got two more days, and actually Remy, my youngest is in his, first half day at nursery by himself today. So I'm this is the calm before the, yeah, this is the calm before the storm. So I'm doing all right, thank you. And all the better for that spectacular intro as well. I think I need to just Bring you around with me everywhere to just go, Hi, who are you? What do you do? speak to Paul, he'll do a much better job of it. yeah,

Paul: 2:47

you make it easy, though. And you make it easy to, be referred in, right? And this is how you and I got to know each other, was You were just starting Collaboration Junkie out. I'd moved out of the retail world and I was just starting to work in SaaS solutions design. And you were constantly on LinkedIn talking about making yourself referable, creating strategies, referring the right people, being intentional about networking. And it really made me sit up and take notice. because you made it easy for me to refer you, it really got me thinking about how I could become referable and do the same thing for other people and, there's a lot of water under the bridge between us Dave, right?

Dave: 3:31

absolutely. But it's about making it easy for people, right? And that's, the absolute core of all the work I do, whether it's across client referrals, network referrals, or partnerships. It's all about making it easy for the people.

Paul: 3:44

Tell me the story of how you started Collaboration Junkie. Because, it's a nice little story. it's not, massively exciting for anybody other than you, I'm sure, but it is an interesting story nonetheless, and there's, lessons to be learned in getting out of the corporate role and doing something that you enjoy.

Dave: 4:01

essentially I got background in membership, ran a membership organization, which we grew to a couple of thousand members almost entirely through referrals and partnerships. We had that then changed into a benefit business We would promote other people's products to other people's customers. We had reach of about a million small business owners, and so some big brands would work with us as their access point to the SME market. we made, the profit in that business came from Our wider audience actually using these benefits. So this is where the relationships with Regis and Volvo Penrith Riders all came in. And so it was in my interests for these other people's partnership departments that we were working with to actually do their jobs and give me the content I needed to be able to promote them effectively. So that business did okay. It was a six figure business. I got miserable running it, Paul, because it was very processed. driven. I went from a community business to a no community, out and out process business. got miserable running it, decided I need to build a business of my own design and thought, I know loads about referrals. I know loads about partnerships. Why is no one else speaking on this? That was it. It was born out of a passion of wanting to do something and add some value. That was just before COVID. COVID came along, wiped out the benefit business. It was too reliant on a handful of key partners and customers. Wiped that out. But in hindsight, that's not necessarily a bad thing. No one wants to lose a six figure business. But It did mean I went all in on what I'm doing now and this is what I should be doing. I think it's what excites me. It's what I love. And I think it's what, what adds real value to people out there.

Paul: 5:46

It's lovely to hear that journey, which, which does mirror my own of fortunately you were getting paid. by the hour or by the, month to build the basis of the business that you now run and operate and learn all the hard lessons that needed to be learned as well as the one, the important ones to set people up for success. so with collaboration junkie, it's, fundamentally about the importance of connections for the, people, both, in and around that business as well as, their connections in turn. How do you think that the role for strategic partnerships has evolved since

6:26

Covid?

Dave: 6:26

So I think during the first couple of years of COVID the word collaboration came up a lot, right? But some of it was a bit fluffy. It was a little bit, yeah, a bit loose, and while we should all be collaborative in nature, absolutely, it's a wonderful way to be, and it's the more natural way for us to be. I speak to lots of people that say they have partners, or they've traditionally had partners, but those partnerships haven't really relied, haven't really delivered anything, and I think Now more than ever, the role of partnerships is both increasing, but it's increasing in a way of actual effectiveness. And I think that becomes more and more as well, a lot of the time from people are now leaving corporate world. They're doing, there are more small businesses out there and that, that's probably only going to increase as years go, as the years go on. And in that model, The role of having effective partners is huge because it allows you to deliver a more complete solution to your audiences, which, in turn makes stickier clients. It allows you to deliver a better level of service. And it means if you want to be going for bigger work and potentially having a range of partners that allows you to deliver a more complete service, enables you to do that. So whether it's as, Enhanced service, whether it's distribution channels, whether it's credibility by association, I think people, we're moving into a more and more of an expert economy, where people value and expect people to have deep knowledge of their particular segment of what they do, right? And I think in that instance, that's where partnership kits become so vital because you're not trying to do everything, you're trying to be very good at what you do. But your client probably wants more than just what you do. I talk about customer value chains. Your customer, your potential customer has a whole load of people that they need to speak to in order to deliver the end result that they really want. And partnerships enable you to do that. It enables you to create an ecosystem where That whole value chain is delivered, but you're just focusing on the bit that you're really, good at. So vital is the short answer to summarize that much longer response.

Paul: 8:53

The issue that I come up against a lot when I talk to people about referrals is that surely it's just another means for people to bring me revenue, right? That's what it's about. It's about how are you going to find some customers for me and I'll give you a bit of cash on the back end. How much do you hate that, Dave?

Dave: 9:13

hate's a strong word, right? So I say quite a lot, I don't do affiliate marketing. That's not my area of expertise. But I always say, nothing against it. It's a perfectly valid route to market. If there is someone that has a list of people that they want to monetize and it's going to bring you business. Go for it, right? Particularly, the more transactional your own product, particularly products probably, but even services, the more transactional it is, then go for it. but, the work that I do is about leveraging trusted relationships. And the reason why you want to leverage trusted relationships is because the relationship that you want with your clients, the is a close, personal, long term one. And I think when that's the nature of your client relationships, you want to make sure that there's a matching values and all that other good stuff that's outside of just, do they need my product or service? And the best way to get that real match and ideal customer is to either get them from people that have experienced you, like referrals, or through a really well chosen partner you've got that relationship. and so I'm not saying there isn't a place for those types of relationships, Paul, and networking groups that are set up specifically to pass referrals and affiliates and all that good stuff, right? Because it is good stuff. It's just not the really good stuff. It's not the really good stuff, which is the stuff that I believe, is a bit more deep seated. That's more enjoyable, more impactful, Ultimately more profitable as well. And so, yeah, that's where I sit.

Paul: 11:00

So Dave, I guess building on the back of that stance and your dedication towards intentional networking and deep seated referrals, what inspired you to create the DANCE Framework?

Dave: 11:13

So the DANCE thing was purely about my love of music, and I'm gonna give a quick shout, shout out to a wonderful lady called Michelle Mills Porter, um, because she heard me do one of my first talks on it, but it was DISCO originally, and she was like, have you thought about making it a broader appeal? And I was like, yeah, okay. And, be fair, Some of the letters are the same, although connection was in both, but means something slightly different in DANCE than it did in disco, actually. but it came from going, I had all this knowledge, but I wanted to be able to keep it contained in a structure that just made it easier for other people to wrap their head around as well. my background in membership and hearing speakers meant that I knew the power of people that had these frameworks and it immediately enables people to engage with that content a little bit more. And whilst partnerships and referrals are something that's the oldest. form of kind of marketing and opportunity generation. And in my book, it's something fairly new in terms of people investing time and money and energy and developing a strategy for. And so I wanted to make it as easy as possible for people to, to engage with the work that I do and also to keep me in line. Stop me going off on tangents whenever anyone asks me what I do. Very quickly go, here's the five things you need to here's the five things you need to look out for.

Paul: 12:41

On the back of that, obviously this podcast is about marketing, predominantly it's about marketing, and I think a lot of business owners out there traditionally see marketing as being things like your website, your SEO, your pay per click, your digital media, all of those things. And, what I've heard said about referral marketing, Predominantly for those who are doing it solo is that it won't last forever. that's, it's not an ever, evergreen well of water that will keep giving. You've got a different stance on that though, right?

Dave: 13:12

look, I'm not ever one to say you shouldn't do the other, you shouldn't do other stuff. And in fact, you need to, because As you scale, you're probably looking for bigger and better referrals. You, as a person, are probably looking for bigger and better referrals. In which case, they're not going to rely on just one introduction, right? People do business with people they know, and trust. All levels of business, right? And, but the higher you get a referral shortcuts that process, but it doesn't negate it. If you're looking for multi million pound contracts kind of thing, or even down, from that, the person isn't just going to rely on an introduction. Probably they're going to want to see social proof. They're going to want to see content. They're going to want to see all the other good stuff, but you talk to loads of big businesses and they still, it still comes down to that. Their big work comes through introduction. And there's loads of stats to back that up. 87 percent of buyers in B2B say that the buying process normally starts with an introduction, right? And then when it comes to client referrals, the shift there is that you build a culture of referrals in your brand as you scale. So that instead of it being reliant on a founder or key couple of individuals, it becomes everyone's business. It becomes brand led, not founder led. And if you can do that while still staying in touch with your customers, rather than a well known accounting package. look, Xero. I get an email from Xero, every other month, offering me 50 quid to refer a friend. And it's just so off the mark, right? but actually, if you build a culture of referrals where you're customer facing teams, are confident and have the skills and the process and the structures behind them to know when to ask for an introduction, how to position it, then actually the scale you can achieve from not forgetting what got you to where you were in the first place, just enhancing it and scaling your strategy as you scale your business can pay dividends forever. Forever and ever in your business, right? So not at the expense of doing other stuff, but don't, most businesses out there are probably, I would say, at 30 to 40 percent efficiency of where they could be in referral and partner strategy. And I'm being kind, right? It's probably more like 20%, like the whole Pareto's law thing. So all I'm saying is don't leave it at 20 percent and go and do all your other stuff. try and make the most of the channels that have worked already before you, or as well as going and doing all that other good stuff.

Paul: 16:18

Leading on the back of that then Dave, I wonder, what is the number one thing that you see business owners getting wrong with regards to their referrals?

Dave: 16:26

In mindset, Paul, it's a mindset problem for most people. In that they see it as something transactional. That it's just part of a sales process or that it's this thing that sits in its own right. And, while you should have a process behind it, or at least if that makes you twitchy, a structure behind you do it. It's about being more, more intentional. We know each other well, you know how much I love that word. but people refer you for what you do. Not what you sell. and which means it's a personal thing. It's a human led thing. And so it isn't this thing that you treat in isolation and go, now I'm going to ask for a referral. I'm going to take a deep breath and feel all awkward and make it feel really salesy for everyone involved in the room. Referrals are something that if you're working with your clients should be dropped into conversation. It should be like asking a favor from a friend. Hey, Paul. Awesome that you got that result. That's lovely. Love to hear that. That's why we do what we do. Listen, next time you're out and about, if you hear anyone else, if you hear anyone getting stressed about their referral strategy because they're a bit too reliant on it, and I'd love to chat with them because I might be able to help them out, right? It should just feel normal and natural, it shouldn't be this deep breath, icky thing. And I think once people understand that, then actually that it doesn't have to be a sales activity. In fact, it's not a sales activity. It's a customer success activity. If you're thinking about your clients, that's the biggest thing is that mindset shift, people are talking about you anyway. So why not get them saying the right things at the right time?

Paul: 18:10

And like firsthand, I can, see the difference that it makes in just getting those, tiny little things, And I think there is an element of awkwardness behind it all, the, element of ick, but that there's a newsflash for a lot of people like, like that ick only exists in your head. it's not a real thing. It's not a real thing, to a certain extent it's a British thing. With regards to marketing and partnership strategies in general, what's one thing that you wish business owners would do more of? What's the, could be a strategy, could be a tool, could be.

Dave: 18:47

Really being comfortable and confident in who you are and going. And not trying to please everyone, right? because it's how you form your brand advocates, right? Is by really knowing who you connect with. And, and then in terms of partnerships as well, the best partnerships are the ones where, yes, there has to be the audience match, it has to stack up. Commercially, it has to work, but the ones that will show longevity and will deliver results the quickest and be the most enjoyable ones are where you can really open their arms to that. Who you are, how you operate, how you treat customers, because then the people that operate in the same way will really resonate with you and everything will just feel that, that little bit smoother. So being really, there's the fluffy side of it being more adorable, but there is absolutely the commercial benefit of there being a really strong match. And so that confident to be unapologetically you, I think is something that we're seeing more and more of, thankfully. and long may it continue.

Paul: 19:57

It certainly helps separate, people who I align with from people who I don't. When I see people like, I always run the litmus test of if I was to reach out to someone. to start a conversation. How easy is it for me to align with them to have a conversation? And there are usually big warning bells for me. If I look at someone's profile and I try and have a conversation or start a conversation and I just have nowhere to go, like no idea how to start there. if you look at it from a LinkedIn perspective, their, about section literally tells you their job role. Their title tells you their job role. Their experiences tell you how they got there. And, there's, all they've ever done is share content from other people, repost things, if they've even posted on LinkedIn. And to try and have a genuine conversation with somebody like that, just doesn't, bode well. The more people who can be, I think it makes it easier for humans to do what humans do best by, by being active on there and just getting out your shell a bit. Give people some reason to genuinely reach out to you if they're clever enough to do it or they're organic or transparent enough to do it. And I think that's the difference. and there's enough on my profile to put off, if somebody approaches me with a chatGPT, AISalesBot is my pet hate, There's no reason for them to need to do that because there's so much on there where you can create an instant connection with me if you really want to, but you don't because you're too busy trying to hit volume.

Dave: 21:27

Yeah. And I think it speaks to our, as humans, we're tribal in our nature, right? We, and part of that is wanting to connect and connect. We connect by kind of finding shared values and shared common interests and common ground. Um, and so to be able to do that, you need to connect. You need to be open about, you need to be open about what those things are in the first place. I think that connected nature of being is actually the natural way. And it's the environment that has pushed us down the more individualistic route. And I'm not anti capitalism or anything like that. But there is this more individualistic nature that Our environment pushes us down, typically, I believe, and it's not the natural way to be.

Paul: 22:15

So flip that on its head then, and what you can't do is give the exact opposite answer to this question, it has to be a separate answer. What's one marketing approach or strategy that you just wish people would just stop doing? What's your pet hate at the moment, Dave? What really winds you up?

Dave: 22:32

What other than, oh, it's your one, Paul. Oh, so I can't,

Paul: 22:38

Oh, that's fine,

Dave: 22:38

you know what, actually, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to embellish your one because what I see people doing with their AI approaches is being really lazy. So I get those approaches, on cold email, actually, typically, in a series of events going, someone's still really interested in talking to you about a press release based on your podcast appearance on this podcast. And there's one that I did four years ago that they plucked off a LinkedIn post or something. And it's so obviously, yeah, there's no interest there, right? it's a blatant, they've tried to personalse, Without actually personalising. And that for me is, I hate that. I'd much rather someone came out cold and said, this is what we do. Would you be interested than trying to false add some kind of false scarcity or a false opportunity if it isn't there based on something they found on my profile, that yeah, that annoys me. That annoys me significantly.

Paul: 23:35

tricking someone isn't a great basis for building a relationship of trust, right? And that's effectively what it is.

Dave: 23:40

no. Yeah. Yeah. It's the opposite of authenticity, right?

Paul: 23:45

Yeah, absolutely. Dave, it's been a genuine pleasure having you on the show. I knew this would be gold dust for anybody out there who's, you know what, it's a very different perspective. I don't come across many people who aren't. How do I tactfully put it who want gushy, gushy networkers who talk a great deal, but achieve very little and charge or try to charge businesses for kind of courses and advice that I just think is outdated and gone. Your content and your advice is absolutely nailed on for the modern era. So I love it. So thank you very much for being a guest on the show. What's next for Collaboration Junkie and how can people reach you mate, or more importantly,

Dave: 24:28

CollaborationJunkie. com, nice and easy. You can find me on LinkedIn, Dave Plunkett, P L U N K E T T. That's, I am just the, I'm just Dave Plunkett. I managed to bagseye that profile. Um, so that's the two places. And what's next? Is going out in October, right? So the book might even be out. The DANCE book might even be out by October. It will certainly be finished and soon to be published by the time this one comes out. so yeah, that's what's next. And having loads of fun while I do it.

Paul: 24:58

And if you're watching at home, along on YouTube, you've caught us on the website, or you're listening to us on your podcast directory, if you or somebody you know would make a fantastic guest for the show, we're always looking for more guests. Feel free, reach out, I can send you a job form to register and we'll get you in the queue to be on the show. Thanks very much for your time Dave, and thank you dear listener and viewer for watching along, listening along. And we will see you next week for another episode of MarketPulse Pros and Pioneers.